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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:44 pm 
As for Meade, I agree that he was better in some ways than his predecessors, but it did not take much talent to defensively deploy and hold the high ground with superior forces and supplies in all three arms.
Much of the Cemetery Ridge deployment had been chosen and done on the first day by Hancock who was out of action, wounded, and Reynolds who was dead.
Then after the disastrous mistake of Pickett's Charge, Meade, with everything in his favor, gave Lee days to hang out during a leisurely withdrawal.
Why do you guys think that Lee would not be able to outmarch around such a timid commander when Meade had much more to fear from a stronger and mostly intact ANV <font color="orange">after the first day? After all, he had done so many times before.</font id="orange">

As for ammo supply, fatigue effects don't do it for me.
Extra wagons or lowering the consumption factor are far preferable,... or a rework that has units consuming basic loads that go dry after an hour of sustained firing unless they get resupplied from supply wagons.
Units which go far afield should be in danger of running out of ammo, with supplies being moved towards them or the limited combat capability and necessity of getting with<font color="orange">in</font id="orange"> resupply range during sustained combat.

BG Ross McDaniel
2nd Bde, 3rd Div, III Corps, AoG, CSA


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 6:23 pm 
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Hi, Ross,

I can understand Lee being cautious.

-2/3 0f his corps commanders and 1/3 of his division commanders were new to their posts.

-He had to find out the union army was on his heels from Longstreet's spy instead of his cavalry.

-He gave instructions to avoid an engagement. We all know how that worked out.

-Lee told Ewell to take Cemetery Hill if he found it practicable. Ewell begged off.

-Longstreet's performance in SE Virginia was not such as to inspire confidence in his ability to conduct independent operations. In any event, he only had seven of his eleven brigades present on the morning July 2. Laws came up in the afternoon and Pickett not until that evening.

-Hill had health issues during the throughout the battle.

In any event, Pfanz says in "Culp's Hill to Cemetery Hill" that Lee considered a turning movement "impractical, for he had too few cavalry present and too little expertise to do the necessary screening, and such a movement in the face of the enemy and in a restricted space between the enemy and the mountains would invite unacceptable risk."

With the disappointing performance of so many of Lee's subordinates, I am not at all surprised rejected the turning movement. It was an invitation to disaster.

I favor basic loads, but not that they be exhausted in an hour. As General Whitehead has indicated, ammo expenditure in Civil War battles rarely averaged more than the basic load per man. At Gettysburg, it was 26 rpm for the whole Confederate army over three days. Granted, that doesn't include rounds scavenged from the Yankees during the battle, but even so, 40 rounds/hour doesn't gibe with the historical evidence of what actually transpired.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 1:57 am 
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Location: USA
I doubt fatigue is a good way to go to simulate ammo supply or to try to limit activity. I find the fatigue system tends to favor the attacker. It does work nicely for limiting reinforcements that enter the field late in the day and should have to rest.

Using very high ammo depletion odds along with more wagons would have some interesting affects. I am not sure how well they would work due to the servere penalties for running out of ammo. Or how they would balance out since the attacker can always melee without ammo. It would be an interesting test though.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1/1/III AoM (CSA)


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 4:27 am 
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Ross,
two things
(1) I was discussing Lee's recorded statements about Meade, not Meade's actual performance.
(2)I think you are more concerned with the game providing your ideas of proper supply level and the ability to try and break from history.

I have not looked at the large maps enough but it is difficult to judge lee's strategic decisions without a good topo map and contemporary road map. I am not too familiar with the area. The only time I drove to Gettysburg was on the back roads from Philly.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 5:00 am 
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As an aside...

Gen Hodgkiss came up with an alternative 3rd day scenario (I helped a little bit).

It postulates that at dusk on July 2nd, Lee agrees with Longstreet to try to move around the Union left. We put together an action starting at dawn with Longstreet's Corps having disengaged and moved around. They start more fatigued because of the night movement (even with resting a couple of hours).

So Meade wakes up with not as many Rebs around. Ewell's Corps heading to join Longstreet and Hill's Corps holding on Seminary Ridge.

You all may be interested in taking a look...


Major General Thompson
Chief of Staff
AoS


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 7:02 am 
<font color="orange">My responses</font id="orange">
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">(1) I was discussing Lee's recorded statements about Meade, not Meade's actual performance.
<font color="orange">Lee also said after the war that McClellan was the best Union general that he ever fought, not Meade nor Grant. Go figure!?</font id="orange">
(2)I think you are more concerned with the game providing your ideas of proper supply level and the ability to try and break from history.
<font color="orange">Break from history?!!!
Historically. the ANV did not run out of artillery or small arms ammo after lots of intense combat and artillery bombardment. I suggest that I am striving for historical accuracy!
And we play these games to try and change history, so I am unabashedly trying to get closer to historical limitations rather than game designer created limitations. No insult intended to game designers because just look at all they have created which we play and enjoy! And they even provided a "game editor function" where we might tweak critical factors to affect play.

As designed, you might think that Lee wanted to capture Gettysburg and surrounding high points, (Culp's Hill, LRT, etc,) and hold on to them to the death, knowing that Meade must come and recapture them. Lee would have moved on,... unless he decided that Meade would attack him on the heights to Lee's advantage. Or Lee might have continued his attack on the AoP if he saw opportunity to damage it more and badly at small expense to the ANV.
Meade could have let Lee sit there on Cemetery Ridge while he deployed to cut off Lee's retreat routes and brought in reinforcements from outside the AoP.
But Lee could not just sit there. He needed to keep moving or as he unfortunately decided at Gettysburg, damage and/or destroy the AoP. Everyone in this club probably understands that it makes no sense to attack a defensive, well prepared, superior force holding the high ground which has no military/political value beyond combat in the immediate locale. [8][xx(]
This obscure country town had no special political or military value once Heth captured the Gettysburg shoe factory. (I have never found any indication that there was a distribution of shoes to his troops.)
I propose that had Lee not decided to disregard Longstreet's counsel and the ANV had captured Culp's Hill and Cemetery Ridge on the first day, that he would have marched on to menace major population centers and spread fear which would force the AoP to come after him and attack. Harrisburg, Baltimore, and Washington DC were particularly good targets to get a scare going and a political demand that the AoP aggressively expell the ANV invader. </font id="orange">
I have not looked at the large maps enough but it is difficult to judge lee's strategic decisions without a good topo map and contemporary road map. I am not too familiar with the area. The only time I drove to Gettysburg was on the back roads from Philly.- Jim Pfleck
<font color="orange">Go to www.mapquest.com and plug in "Gettysburg PA," then click a time or two on the map expander. (-) With a bit of scrolling, you can get a look at the relative locations of major cities at risk.
I consider Newark far too dangerous for the ANV to make a serious move against as it would place the ANV deep in enemy territory with great opportunities to cut it off and destroy it.</font id="orange">
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Lee screwed up badly at Gettysburg on the second and third days. It was not just Longstreet that recognized that the attacks did not make sense, but division and brigade commanders also are recorded as protesting their deployments.

BG Ross McDaniel
2nd Bde, 3rd Div, III Corps, AoG, CSA

Dialogue according to Shelby Foote between Longstreet and Lee late (after 1630) on the first day of Gettysburg:

Longstreet: If we could have chosen a point to meet our plans of operation, I do not think we could have found a better one than that upon which they are now concentrating.
All we have to do is throw our army around by their left, and we shall interpose between the Federal army and Washington. We can get a strong position and wait, and if they fail to attack us, we shall have everything in condition to move back tomorrow night in the direction of Washington, selecting a good position into which we can place our troops to receive battle next day.
Finding our object is Washington and that army, the Federals will be sure to attack us. When they attack, we shall beat them,as we proposed to do before we left Fredericksburg, and the probabilities are that the fruits of our success will be great.

Lee: No, the enemy is there (gesturing with his fist toward Cemetery Ridge) and I am going to attack him there.

Longstreet: If he is there, it is because he is anxious that we should attack him: a good reason in my judgment for not doing so.

Lee: No, they are there in position, and I am going to whip them or they are going to whip me.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2009 8:32 am 
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I was not refering to the proximity of the major cities. Living in Philly for 5 years gave me perspective on that. I was talking about the more immediate surroundings to get a feel for the hills and road networks to see how realistic Longstreet's ideas were. It is rolling hills around there (in the midwest they might even call some of them mountains!)

I think it is a good what if as far as what Lee would have done. I am not so sure he would have gone after a major city once Meade had engaged. much of Lee's plan depended on avoiding contact for as long as possible with the main body of the AotP and I think he as much more cautious when he was far from his base...

And the what if's I was refering to is the this discussion of flanking manouvers and marching on major cities. It seems there are different opinions on ammo levels and expenditure and it is all beyond what I know for sure.


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