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 Post subject: Where is the ACWGC I once knew?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:13 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 3:06 pm
Posts: 232
Location: USA
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:56 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:49 am
Posts: 391
Location: USA
Bells and whistles always complicate things in the long run. Unfortunately, "keeping it simple" is usually what someone wants to go back to after it is too late.

I've never paid any attention to the various awards you're saying are out there being awarded left and right. I'm always surprised during a rare check of my OBD points, to discover I've got a few points for this or that.

You're not the first club member I've read a 'cry in the night' from about how things have gone sour for this reason or that . . . As harsh as it sounds, it's just life that's happening. Things evolve with time, and get more impersonal with size. The biggest mistake is to get too upset over the natural progression.

By the way . . . thanks for the good work on the DoR. Many have been the times I've marveled at its logic and it accuracy.

Your Obedient Servant,
Lt Gen Dwight McBride
Ist Division/1st Brigade
V Corps/AOP/USA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 2:58 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:48 am
Posts: 154
Location: USA
Don,

Well said. For one, I am not much of a politician, and luckily, most of the drama, and or powerplay stuff, I am ignorant of. (Not to say that I'm naive enough to think that it doesn't exist.) I do enjoy playing the games, and helping to create the games that we all enjoy. I can rememeber the day in 2006 that I stumbled onto this club. I can't even begin to tell you the excitement that I felt! FINALLY! I can play against real people!

Also, only commanding an army for a short time, I can say a few things...first, the DoR is invaluable. I'm an old fantasy sports player from way back, and remember when all of that was done by hand. What a pain. This must have been much the same. Thankfully, you remedied all of that before I came on board. Second, I am really only in it to try and enhance the gameplay, and maybe get some of the yanks in our own army, more on a first name basis with other yanks.

So...I say thank you, and send me a courier...I've been itching to try out my new Atlanta game.


I have destroyed over 2,000 barns filled with wheat, hay and farming implements; over 70 mills filled with flour and wheat, and have driven in front of the Army over 4,000 head of stock and have killed and issued to the troops not less than 3,000 sheep. Tomorrow I will continue the destruction down to Fisher’s Mill. When this is completed, the Valley from Winchester to Staunton, 92 miles, will have but little in it for man or beast.....
- General Phil Sheridan

Lt. General Rusty Hodgkiss
Army of the Shenandoah


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:25 pm 
Don,

I applaud your post.....I hope that doesn't get you in trouble.....It reminded me of the Civil War Generals 2 group that I belonged to. There was no ladder....There was no "rank".....Nobody had any power over the other individual members......Nobody could throw anybody out.....It was strictly about playing the game.....There was roleplaying to be sure....We had our first FTW effort there and when we met we filled a hotel and a half near Shiloh. It was a great group of guys....There was one thing completely lacking......There simply was no drama. I still have some folks I consider friends from that group. There is no one I have any hostility whatsoever to from that group.....

I believe the drama is created by the fact that there is an actual power structure in this club.....Whether that power structure is good or bad or really even neccessary is debatable. I only know that things worked better from a drama standpoint without it.

At the point this club has evolved to, I am not sure what form the solution should take, or even if there is a practical solution. I can say that I think you have outlined some of the problems well though.

BG Hank Smith
Army of Georgia
Smith's Corp Commanding


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:27 pm 
Don,

I applaud your post.....I hope that doesn't get you in trouble.....It reminded me of the Civil War Generals 2 group that I belonged to. There was no ladder....There was no "rank".....Nobody had any power over the other individual members......Nobody could throw anybody out.....It was strictly about playing the game.....There was roleplaying to be sure....We had our first FTW effort there and when we met we filled a hotel and a half near Shiloh. It was a great group of guys....There was one thing completely lacking......There simply was no drama. I still have some folks I consider friends from that group. There is no one I have any hostility whatsoever to from that group.....

I believe the drama is created by the fact that there is an actual power structure in this club.....Whether that power structure is good or bad or really even neccessary is debatable. I only know that things worked better from a drama standpoint without it.

At the point this club has evolved to, I am not sure what form the solution should take, or even if there is a practical solution. I can say that I think you have outlined some of the problems well though.

BG Hank Smith
Army of Georgia
Smith's Corp Commanding


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:31 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2002 7:09 pm
Posts: 40
Location: USA
I think that perhaps things have really gotten to complex (IMHO) - when it becomes a chore (loving or not) to perform club duties (no matter what those duties may be) then eventually what used to be enjoyable will not be anymore and at best an attitude of apathy will develop. I was not a party to the intrigues that happened in the past but they have truly scarred this club. It seems to me that it was a difference of opinion that could have been settled with no lasting ill effects. However it wasn’t and here we are. I do have a few questions however:

1) Are the club records backed up? Seems to me that the databases are residing on a computer somewhere and it should be fairly simple to back them up by archiving them offsite – either via email or burned disks. That way there would never be a fear of somebody “taking overâ€


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:32 am 
MG E.L.Bird,

You sir, are now my hero....I think you have covered things beautifully.....And in a very constructive manner....I have tried in the past but have not been able to say these things as directly and unoffensively as you just did......Perhaps someday those in charge will actually listen and then meaningful change can come about.

Thank you for your real life service in Iraq.....


BG Hank Smith
Army of Georgia
Smith's Corp Commanding


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:53 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:19 pm
Posts: 75
Location: Wagoner, Oklahoma
What is happening, I need to check my medications, Bill Peters is beginning to make sense. :-)

Maj General Al Baker
2nd Bde 4th Division
II Corp AoG


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:21 am 
MG Baker,

Based upon recent statement made by yourself on this board, I feel I must regrettfully inform you that perhaps medications will no longer suffice as treatment. When you cross the "Bill is making sense" threshold, it usually means heavy electroshock therapy, or a lobectomy. I hope it is not as bad as all that, but it truly sounds bleak.

My sincerest hopes for your recovery,

[:D]

BG Hank Smith
Army of Georgia
Smith's Corp Commanding


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:40 am 
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Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 12:44 pm
Posts: 1200
Location: USA
As someone who was there, I'll attempt to answer MG Bird's questions:

1 - Yes, the DoR is backed up, regularly. I believe both Don and Ernie have copies, as well as the sitting Club President.

2 - I would say what you're talking about in being kicked out is shades of grey. If you are banned from posting, or participating in the Club structure, that's essentially being kicked out as well. If we did that, I suspect we'd be discussing why we'd banned someone from posting instead. So it's shades of grey. An individual can continue to play games all they want. they can find opponnents at the Blitz, or contact old friends within the Club to play against. The Club or Cabinet can't control that.

3 - Again, this is a damned if you do, damned if you don't. Larry Quick (since this is the example you're speaking of) had already resigned, and asked to be left alone. The way the Club Rules are written, and based on Larry's history within the Club, dating back to 2003, and since he had benallowed to rejoin in the past by the Cabinet, that his reinstatement should be a Cabinet decision. So the vote was taken to ensure that IF Larry ever wanted to rejoin, that it would come before the Cabinet. That's all. Larry had asked to be left alone. On one hand, had the Cabinet informed him of the vote, people would then be saying we were just rubbing it in his face, and taking it too far. On the other hand, we get blasted for keeping it private. Again, at the time, Larry had asked to be left alone, and also said he'd quit, so it was easily viewed as a courteous way to handle it. Some folks will agree, some will disagree. The key, in my mind, was there was no malice or intent at anything BUT courtesy. It was my motion - no one can tell you otherwise and tell the truth.

4 - Larry enjoyed helping people within the Club, and his gift was website and IT help. Again, here is a damned if you do, and damned if you don't point. The Cabinet didn't care whether Larry hosted the sites or not - it was not the Cabinet's doing, it was different individuals who were friends of Larry's helping out at Army levels, etc. on both sides. Why would the Cabinet tell those folks they couldn't work with their friend Larry on those sites? That would have been even more intrusive. That Larry had QUIT the Club, and chose to continue to support his friends, was Larry's business and that of the guys he was supporting. What Larry does in Larry's time is his business, not the Cabinet's or the Club's. Again, damned if you do, and damned if you don't.

5 - Many folks think the voting time is too long. Some think it's too short. You try your best for a happy medium. Why would 14 days be better than 7? Should it be 10? Does it really matter? As to who can vote, 5 of the 7 people on the Cabinet, anyone can vote, restricted to their Club side of CSA or Union. The CoA's are chosen by the senior "military" folks. This isn't a foreign concept in elections, politics, or the military. In my mind, it ensures that the people who have invested the time in games AND service have a voice in the continuity of the Club and the leadership of their army. We at least have a vote here - go to the the Colonial Campaigns Club, the Panzer Campaigns Club, the Napoloenics Club, the Blitz, you name it and ask what their voting rules are. There aren't any. And still, we complain.

6 - The Cabinet members do communicate, regularly and often. If you are referring to Larry's or Hanks insistence that Larry's ideas were not even responded to, that's an utter falsehood. Larry didn't like that his ideas were voted on and he lost, so instead of adhering to the democratic methods of the Club, he would just DEMAND an answer.

Larry was not banned from service on the Cabinet - he was on the Cabinet, and ended up resigning.

Here's the thing that bothers me - the Cabinet, in your own admission, is a decent group of people. There are 7 of them at any given time, and many folks have come and gone in those positions. The vote on Larry's reinstatement being a Cabinet decision was UNANIMOUS. No dissension. And yet you don't seem to want to believe that the Cabinet was doing the best they could in the given situation. That seems backwards to me.

Here's another tidbit - Larry Quick is the only person to be kicked out of the Club in the 5 years of Cabinet service I was party to. He's only truly been kicked out once, way back in 2004, after many other less severe attempts to resolve issues with him prior to jumping to that extreme measure - by a totally different group of Club leadership than those that sit today. This most recent time, Larry RESIGNED. He didn't get kicked out. The Cabinet just voted to make sure his REINSTATEMENT, if ever it was needed, would be at the discretion of the Cabinet. To date, that is where is stands. Larry wasn't kicked out. He quit. I posted the emails showing that.

http://www.wargame.ch/board/acw/topic.a ... C_ID=15196

I hope that the facts are more evident, and that you could give the benfit of doubt to 7 folks who are pretty decent guys, or take the time to get the whole story, as in both sides of it, before you would want to jump to conclusions.

I, too, thank you for your service. I'm a retired Naval Officer myself.

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General Jeff Laub
Eastern Theater, Commanding
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:31 pm 
"The Cabinet members do communicate, regularly and often. If you are referring to Larry's or Hanks insistence that Larry's ideas were not even responded to, that's an utter falsehood"

General Laub,

I believe you are now calling me a liar publicly....You should retract that! At this point I will give you some time to do just that before I respond to this blatant attack! I am NOT a liar and I do not appreciate your assertion. I never said his "ideas" were not responded to. I stated that his emails were not responded to by certain cabinet members who uniformly opposed him, not by all cabinet members. That was and is the truth.

As for your assertion that Larry resigned and therefore was not thrown out, well that is a change of face there. I was told by a sitting cabinet member that his resignation was refused and he was then expelled. Logic dictates that you cannot throw out someone who was not a member. Therefore under the rules you could not have possibly have fixed things to require a cabinet vote for Reinstatement unless you threw him out. The rules as they stood were that if he resigned then he could rejoin with just the CoA's Ok....An expulsion required a cabinet vote. You made it where it required a cabinet vote, so don't claim you did not throw him out.

Lastly, with regards to whether Larry was thrown out or not I am going to post one completely undeniable sentence from the motion that you yourself wrote. I believe it will aettle the issue once and for all.......


""" Jeffrey Laub <jdlaub@msn.com> wrote:
I move that Larry Quick be expelled from the American Civil War Gaming Club, effective immediately."""

Go ahead, DENY THAT!!!!



You can try to spin thing another way, but the fact is, everytime you try this, you just end up making things far worse. I think at this point you have become extremely damaging to the club.

Lastly, I will say, and this utterly sickens me, that your continuing attacks on a man who cannot respond because he is banned from doing so are extremely cowardly and completely unethical. It's easy to keep bringing him up and continuing your personal assaults on him when he cannot respond. You should be disiplined for this behavior. I'm sure you will not be, but you most derinatly should be. So you know, the actual reason that Larry ended up pulling the sites was because of this very issue. He finally grew tired of you dragging his name through the mud on this board when he could not respond. That promted the notice of a "limited" pulling of support for some sites (not most). General Tisdale's response to Larry's notice, which was forwarded to him when he was not on the recipients list triggered the complete pulling of all of the sites. So you, were the one who got the ball rolling on that. Congratulations.



BG Hank Smith
Army of Georgia
Smith's Corp Commanding


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:44 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2002 7:09 pm
Posts: 40
Location: USA
Gen Laub,

I appreciate your response to my questions. I was under the impression that the cabinet “revokedâ€


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:47 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2002 7:09 pm
Posts: 40
Location: USA
Gen Laub,
In my haste to post I did not thank you for your service to our nation! I have 18 years in at the moment (USMCR and ARNG). I’m not sure about retirement yet, I’ve been batting around WO school. Who knows…
Regards,


MG E.L.Bird
2ND, 2nd Div,II Corps,A.o.G.,C.S.A.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:01 pm 
Wait...

Wait...

Yes! This is indeed last month... we have gone back in time!

(grumble grumble)

Whats that?!

(grumble grumble)

Were covering it all again?!

(grumble grumble)

The hell you say!

(grumble grumble)

Things just keep going around and around here dont they!

(grumble)

Reminds me of that tornado we had a while back. That wind up and blew all the feathers off of the Ducks and on to the Chickens. Then blew all the feathers off of the Chickens and on to the Ducks. Next day it was all we could do to keep our sanity as the Duck went bock bock and the Chickens went Quack Quack!

(grumble)

I don't care if you have heard that story before I still like it!

(grumble?)

My point?

(GRUMBLE!)

My point is that it doesnt really matter what the hell you do you cant turn a Chicken into a Duck or a Duck into a Chicken!

(GRUMBLE!?)

Who said I needed a point to my story? Nothing else that goes on in this thread has a point anymore. Case closed, move all private brawls to... well... private... and lets carry on.

(grumble grumble)

Glad you agree Jon.

(grumble ... cough)

Hey a couple of you fellas help me get Hooper off the floor before he drowns in a pool of his own saliva.

(grumble??)

Well, Jon, everyone else was putting bull sh*t on here I thought I would to. Next time I will try to keep quiet!

(HA! grumble)

Yeah... so is your Old Man! How you like them apples?! Now lets go drink some more so we won't remember this tomorrow old friend! [:)]

If anyone wants to pick a fight with me I will be out back with my laptop and email account ready for a private brawl. No public fights please. I dont like people to see me bleed [B)]

I'd also prefer someone of the lower intellectual sort so it will be a short fight. Anyone from the Army of the Shenandoah will do nicely [}:)]

Respectfully,
Col. Blake Strickler
Commandant of VMI

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Army of the Mississippi
Chief of Staff

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 1:12 pm 
When someone, publicly calls me a liar, and attacks a friend that cannot respond, all the while spinning things that contradict his own earlier posts, I will respond.

Having said that, I thought until that very "spin" post, this thread was more constructive than destructive.....I deluded myself to think that those in power might actually listen.....I hoped that we might finally begin to make things better.....I still hope those things can happen, but after today I am far less optimistic.....It appears to be buissiness as usual......

I hope that changes.....

BG Hank Smith
Army of Georgia
Smith's Corp Commanding


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