<
             Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC) Forums
*    NWC     NWC Staff     NWC Rules     NWC (DoR) Records    About Us     Send Email Inquiry to NWC
*   La Grande Armée Quartier Général        La Grande Armée Officer Records       Join La Grande Armée
*   Allied Coalition    Allied Officers     Join Coalition
*   Coalition Armies:   Austro-Prussian-Swedish Army    Anglo Allied Army (AAA)    Russian Corps
  
                 Military Books, Magazines, Games for sale (see other items)
Forums:    ACWGC    CCC     Home:    ACWGC    CCC
It is currently Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:37 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Waterloo Revisited
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:00 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 2:48 am
Posts: 1243
Location: Charlotte NC
The Craan map is the best in my opinion.

And then there is the Ferraris map from 1777 that will give some good information about the topography. http://www.kbr.be/collections/cart_plan ... is_en.html

We already talked about it some years ago... viewtopic.php?p=58581

_________________
Image

--------------------------
"From the sublime to the ridiculous is but a step."
Napoléon Bonaparte

Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
Groucho Marx


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Waterloo Revisited
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:49 pm
Posts: 339
Location: Co Durham, England
Obviously this is a lot of work to do and it seems to sum it up that morale is the most important and first thing to deal with then the start positions of the French with either 10 minute turns or both 10 and 15 minute turn scenarios and finally a selection of company sized scenarios. I personally would like the map reworked and colours changed to make the game more in line with later releases.

I don't know if Waterloo has ever been upgraded but surely this is the time to do it. What is John Tillers view on this would he sanction an upgrade because surely if he sanctions it, it's ok to change maps etc. At the end of the day it is an upgrade in a download like any other upgrade to improve on what is already there.

Bill I know this is a big undertaking for you if it was to be done but the question is can it. Also are there others out there who could help with certain parts?

_________________
Colonel Mark Hornsby
Chef d'Etat-Major
III Corps
Chef d'Etat-Major
La Grande Armee

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.


In war, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns.

_____________________________________________


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Waterloo Revisited
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:43 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:55 am
Posts: 810
Location: Bouches-de-l’Elbe
Maybe Rich can say what map formed the base of the in-game map.

@David Guegan
At what time is the Craan map set? After 1815?

@Mark Hornsby
I had worked a bit into Gilly, but if OOB(moral values) & map are to be adjusted it would be best to make these changes before the scenarios are formed out of it.
So if the adjustments for OOB & map are done I could do the Gilly scenario.

_________________
Capitaine Christian Hecht
La Grande Armée - IIIe Corps d'Armée - 3ème Division d'Infanterie
"Vive Napoleon!"

ImageImageImage


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Waterloo Revisited
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:00 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 2:48 am
Posts: 1243
Location: Charlotte NC
His map is from 1816.

For more information about it...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willem_Benjamin_Craan

and you can have a view of the map here too:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... 845%29.jpg

_________________
Image

--------------------------
"From the sublime to the ridiculous is but a step."
Napoléon Bonaparte

Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.
Groucho Marx


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Waterloo Revisited
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:42 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:55 am
Posts: 810
Location: Bouches-de-l’Elbe
Ah that map, I had linked to it but I'm glad there is a more accessible version out there, me link needed a crappy viewer.

There are also some versions out that show the map upside down with the British on the bottom, very strange view.

_________________
Capitaine Christian Hecht
La Grande Armée - IIIe Corps d'Armée - 3ème Division d'Infanterie
"Vive Napoleon!"

ImageImageImage


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Waterloo Revisited
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:18 am
Posts: 5230
Location:
"Bill I know this is a big undertaking for you if it was to be done but the question is can it. Also are there others out there who could help with certain parts?"

Mark - changing the morale values is easy. Also coming up with a 10 min. version too. I would also add that I would have the cavalry using squadrons as well for a 2nd version.

I wont touch the map or graphics issues. That would be up to someone else at this point.

Christian - I did not realize that the leader ratio from nation to nation was so drastically different. When I did a similar thing (but not this drastic) to the French in Jena I knew it would rebound eventually. Too many leaders to move around.

Folks also ask "would you add in courier leaders to the game." I dont do that as the players could add those in if they like. Just add in a new org to the OB where it wont upset the existing org and add in the courier leaders as needed. It would be easier to use a courier procedure such as this:

1. Determine the total amount of turns the courier SHOULD arrive.
2. About halfway through the "ride" roll a d10 and check it on the "Courier Table" (which the players could make up). Things like "Courier takes wrong road" or "Courier gets captured" would make the game interesting.
3. For Courier captured the other player would be given the courier note which would be drawn up in a text file and saved for eventual outcome.

Couriers for team games would be good too. In my team game with Ludwig and Dave (Bonus 7 from Leipzig) I am commanding our left. In many ways I am acting independent of Ludwig in the center but it would be nice in my next team game to use couriers instead of email directions.

_________________
Image
General der Kavallerie Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz
Husaren-Regiment Hessen-Kassel
Infanterie-Brigade Hessen-Kassel
Königlich-Preußisches Armee-Korps
Scenario Designer for Napoleonic Battles series - John Tiller Software
http://friendsofwargaming.com/support-bill-peters.html


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Waterloo Revisited
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 4:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:49 pm
Posts: 339
Location: Co Durham, England
I like the idea of couriers that would add a whole new dimension to the game. I'm assuming that the actual French start positions and grand battery would be included if morale was lowered.

_________________
Colonel Mark Hornsby
Chef d'Etat-Major
III Corps
Chef d'Etat-Major
La Grande Armee

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.


In war, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns.

_____________________________________________


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Waterloo Revisited
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:39 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:55 am
Posts: 810
Location: Bouches-de-l’Elbe
Yea couriers sound very interesting and I guess it's really the best to let the players add them if they need them, in normal games these couriers could be used in a gamey way.

As I have never toyed around with the AI move feature, is this an all or nothing feature?
I mean could we set the AI to only move the couriers?
it could be interesting to let the courier move by AI, that way they are not directly controlled and would arrive where they were designated to arrive, in case the receiving officer moved it would again delay the arrival of any message as the courier has to search for that officer.

_________________
Capitaine Christian Hecht
La Grande Armée - IIIe Corps d'Armée - 3ème Division d'Infanterie
"Vive Napoleon!"

ImageImageImage


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Waterloo Revisited
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2016 12:22 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:18 am
Posts: 5230
Location:
Christian - the AI does a poor job of routing units. It wont move them over a bridge for instance.

My courier format uses no leader units. You just write down what turn you send it out and the destination hex. Then halfway through its routing you do a die roll. If it is not intercepted or gets going down the wrong road then it will reach its destination. Isolated orgs trying to send out a courier would have an additional roll to make ....

Team games would be better with couriers ....

_________________
Image
General der Kavallerie Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz
Husaren-Regiment Hessen-Kassel
Infanterie-Brigade Hessen-Kassel
Königlich-Preußisches Armee-Korps
Scenario Designer for Napoleonic Battles series - John Tiller Software
http://friendsofwargaming.com/support-bill-peters.html


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Waterloo Revisited
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 7:03 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:17 pm
Posts: 45
Have you seen the fantastic job that have been done here http://www.junibis.be/maps/static ?

there are everything to do a great map with all the road/wood/hill
and all the position for each hour for all units even picket

_________________
Guillaume Bertrand
43ème Régiment d'Infanterie de Ligne
3ème Brigade,
1ère Division,
4éme Corps d'Armée,
La Grande Armée


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Waterloo Revisited
PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2016 1:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:55 am
Posts: 810
Location: Bouches-de-l’Elbe
I think that is the Ferraris map from 1777, so we surely have differences 1815.

_________________
Capitaine Christian Hecht
La Grande Armée - IIIe Corps d'Armée - 3ème Division d'Infanterie
"Vive Napoleon!"

ImageImageImage


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Waterloo Revisited
PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2016 5:56 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2016 6:17 pm
Posts: 45
Christian Hecht wrote:
I think that is the Ferraris map from 1777, so we surely have differences 1815.

yes it's . see reference. http://www.junibis.be/sources/maps

I don't think there is much great difference in 38 years

_________________
Guillaume Bertrand
43ème Régiment d'Infanterie de Ligne
3ème Brigade,
1ère Division,
4éme Corps d'Armée,
La Grande Armée


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Waterloo Revisited
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2016 12:44 pm
Posts: 6
Hi all.

Sorry for late posting and poor English here, but there go my two cents to the discussion.

Napoleon didn't have any relevant tactical victory condition defined by losses or hexes to grab on to during the Hundred Days campaign in my humble opinion.
If one considers a Waterloo scenario as an evolved state of this initial game situation, he simply had none at all.
Subordinates had, but that's not the exclusive player role in any JTS games so far.

His goals were pure strategical.

Self-defending by:
* Balance the unfavourable odds against 7th coalition.
Gain time to train his strategic reserves (national guard).
Accessing eventual, even limited, francophone belgium manpower.
Actively trying to break up the ineluctable outcomes by looking for unexpected and unpredictable events (i.e. change of admin in England).
Instil back a minimal level of national pride.

* Increasing his political and personal prestige in order to keep his throne and make a patriotic war in French soil foreseeable (nobody in France wanted it).
Taking Brusseles, win engagements better if turning into precipitous and divisive rout, etc.
Something propaganda could write on basically.
The rear line were exposed to royalist uprising that could merge with any sort of social, economical or political discontent (which were widespread).
Conscription was a cause of enormous discontent too...
He couldn't spend too much time far from Paris due to the risk of coups and Chambers plottings.
There seemed to be no money to supply a long time war too?
One shall speculate Napoleon wasn't either a perfectly rational agent in 1815 in its subjectivity and view of situation (posterity, fatalism, desperation...).

The only operational translation of this picture: strike first/hard/fast by taking the central position.
He waited the very last moment while Austrian and Russian armies were approaching the minor theatre of operations.

He couldn't refuse battle from Wellington at Waterloo and rejoin Grouchy.
Armee du Nord was a fragile and politically heterogeneous army.
Nobody would consider it exceptional at manouvring in any sense to balance the price in the coming days.
Command and logistics were lacking under several aspects.
It'd mean to throw the momentum and confidence of Ligny by marching and countermarching.
Overlooking any terrain consideration, there was simply no time for seeking a more favourable battle outline.

Any pirric outcome was an operational draw and strategical defeat, at best.
He certainly needed to preserve an operational echelon to conduct a decisive persuit.
And Wellington had one at Hal already to cover his retreat...

He accepted exhaustion battle then.
Believing in his ability to choose the exact instant to commit his (untouched by Prussians) reserves.
A minor victory was better than a full defeat.
It was something propaganda and historians could debate at least.

He didn't know how badly Prussians run off the 16th.
It was all but mathematics to understand that from a battlefield the day after.
Willingness to fight and resilience of his enemies increased in later campaigns, but still intelligence was lacking as much as his resolution and general staff quality.
He hoped for the best and one couldn't expect anything different from Napoleon and fog of war.
He was defeated on 17th ultimately while assigning decorations at Ligny.

Waterloo is a clear example of battle entirely shaped by the operational level of war.
I see the large scale of JTS Waterloo's map providing attractive opportunities under this aspect.
The biggest weaknesses that makes the series somewhat unattractive in DX12-capable GPUs era, could turn into a convenience.
Turn based, abstracted mechanics on hex-map and simple graphics would avoid very much of the optimization concerns that tear to pieces such a design for SOWWL, Histwar, NTW, ... beforehand.

Very simplified and Lua-scripted (yet non-100%-deterministic) strategical layer environment to "drive" the goals of JTS simulation.
Operational mechanics on command and control, intelligence, perception systems, etc.
And a lot of AI programming where operational world is represented as graph (nodes=towns, edges=roads) and action space modelled at an higher level (march, screen, concentrate and so on).
The map also requires rework. The early stages suffers a bit from the absence of Thuin, Lobbes, etc. as instance, imho.
Worth asking junibis.be guys if they're interested in building a GIS vector dataset of 1815 road network first...
Linearly-interpolated movements don't make much sense in their (amazing) work and would come in handy for videogaming maps as well.

Soldiers of the 5th, if anybody is able to persuade JT to start a venture on Napoleonic Campaigns along the lines of Wargame Design Studio in the next 50 years and need a C++ programmer, well... here I am! :frenchsalute:

Best regards.

P.S. I prefer Eckmuhl over Waterloo. :wink:


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Waterloo Revisited
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 9:51 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:18 am
Posts: 5230
Location:
I pretty much do not have the time at present to complete Warren's dream. I know that if I do the morale values for the French would tumble and would be the same as what I use in the games I work on. Ligne would be "4" in most cases and Legere would be "5."

In the old BG Waterloo that is what we had and the French could and DID win the games. I know because I had my head handed to me as the Anglo-Allied! Others too.

I agree - no exit hexes but the Anglo-Allied VP locations would remain. If Wellington retreats from those position he has no defensible terrain to fall back on before Brussels and Antwerp. Napoleon's goal of eliminating one opponent (Anglo-Allied) and then turning on the other (Prussians) would be realized.

_________________
Image
General der Kavallerie Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz
Husaren-Regiment Hessen-Kassel
Infanterie-Brigade Hessen-Kassel
Königlich-Preußisches Armee-Korps
Scenario Designer for Napoleonic Battles series - John Tiller Software
http://friendsofwargaming.com/support-bill-peters.html


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Waterloo Revisited
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2013 10:55 am
Posts: 810
Location: Bouches-de-l’Elbe
Nicolò Fassan wrote:
Soldiers of the 5th, if anybody is able to persuade JT to start a venture on Napoleonic Campaigns along the lines of Wargame Design Studio in the next 50 years and need a C++ programmer, well... here I am! :frenchsalute:

And if that happens and testers are needed, here I am! :frenchvive1:

_________________
Capitaine Christian Hecht
La Grande Armée - IIIe Corps d'Armée - 3ème Division d'Infanterie
"Vive Napoleon!"

ImageImageImage


Top
 Profile E-mail  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 39 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Localized by Maël Soucaze © 2010 phpBB.fr