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 Post subject: Re: Master of Europe Tourney - MOE V
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:38 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2003 1:58 am
Posts: 216
Location: Tasmania, Australia
I will send an email to bring up the French numbers. I'm in.
My Games:
- HPS Waterloo
- Bonaparte's Peninsula War
- Campaign Austerlitz
- Leipzig
- NIR
- Jena
- Wagram
- Eckmuhl

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General Mark Oakford
Duc de Smolensk Comte d'Autun
Commandant: Escadron de Mamelouks de la Garde Imperial
Cavalerie de la Vielle Garde, La Vielle Garde,
La Garde Impériale, La Grand Armee
http://campcromwell.blogspot.com/


Last edited by Mark Oakford on Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Master of Europe Tourney - MOE V
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:52 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 10:57 am
Posts: 2212
Location: Canada
Recieved

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 Post subject: Re: Master of Europe Tourney - MOE V
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:56 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:19 pm
Posts: 29
Location: Czech Republic
Hi, I'd like to join.

I have all the titles.

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Vilna Infantry Regiment
27th Infantry Division
Russian Corps

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 Post subject: Re: Master of Europe Tourney - MOE V
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:00 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 10:57 am
Posts: 2212
Location: Canada
Petr Michalek wrote:
Hi, I'd like to join.

I have all the titles.


Your in

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 Post subject: Re: Master of Europe Tourney - MOE V
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:49 pm 
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Joined: Fri Dec 20, 2002 9:01 am
Posts: 1386
Location: USA
Hi John,

I will jump in for my usual first round elimination. Also, sent you an email. :frenchdrunk:

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13ème Régiment d'Infanterie Légère
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5eme Corps d'Armée,
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 Post subject: Re: Master of Europe Tourney - MOE V
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:44 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 10:57 am
Posts: 2212
Location: Canada
Blue Nemesis wrote:
Hi John,

I will jump in for my usual first round elimination. Also, sent you an email. :frenchdrunk:


Your in Ed.

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 Post subject: Re: Master of Europe Tourney - MOE V
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 1:06 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 10:57 am
Posts: 2212
Location: Canada
Delayed start until i get 2 more french officers.

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 Post subject: Re: Master of Europe Tourney - MOE V
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 6:47 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:18 am
Posts: 5231
Location:
House Rules questions:

S.1 Skirmishers in clear terrain must remain within 3 hexes of any unit of their brigade when an enemy unit is in sight and is within 20 hexes.

Q. Does this mean that skirmishers can form a chain of themselves as long as they are within 3 hexes of another skirmisher? (Its why I use the phrase "Formed unit" in my house rule)



S.4 Skirmishers that are deployed in the open at the beginning of a scenario may remain in place or may advance for cover. If they advance towards the enemy without formed inf they must make it to cover in one move.

Q. So continuing on ... does this mean that the chain of pure skirmishers cannot advance on the enemy if they cannot make it to cover? And what about the French skirmishers at Waterloo that did advance to the main ridge which Picton was deployed behind. There was no cover in that case AND their parent battalions were well to the rear. Which is why I use a 5 or 6 hex skirmisher leash rule with the idea being that the skirmisher is tied to any formed unit in its parent brigade .. and not another skirmisher or to prohibit it from advancing in the open.

Bottom line: skirmishers were deployed to either:

1. Put fire on the enemy.
2. Protect its parent formed units from enemy skirmisher fire.
3. Occupying a hard location like a village, chateau or other closed terrain location.

If they move in the open they are subject to being overrun by cavalry pure and simple. I think this rule was devised more for the older Talonsoft Battleground series and should have a caveat attached to it.

S.5 NEW: Cavalry units with a strength of less than 25 men cannot be used in covered terrain to block road movement of larger units (also see miscellaneous rule #8).

Comment: this rule has been rendered useless by the fact that infantry can now melee cavalry in closed terrain. Is this rule still in force? What if a player moves a cavalry unit through the woods-road and his opponent believes he has violated the rule? Seems like this rule could cause more arguing than it solves. Esp. now that the cavalry can be eliminated in a melee ....

C.1 Cavalry may not charge into covered terrain (villages, towns, woods, marshes, chateaux, etc.). They may however continue a charge-melee into one hex of covered terrain but the first melee must have occurred against a noncovered terrain hex. Cavalry may charge across hedges, embankments, and streams.

Not sure why anyone would want to continue into a town after being Disordered. What is the difference if the unit charges into an empty Village hex or if it continues into an empty Village hex? I dont see a difference. The cavalry is Disordered on any subsequent melee.

2. Leaders and supply wagons will not be used to take enemy objective hexes or to prevent the retreat of enemy units.

Comment: Routed units and these types cannot change the possession of a VP (objective) location. Secondly, in a test I ran today if a leader is a rear hex the enemy unit overruns it during the retreat. The same could not be said of a wagon. This rule is still very much valid. The retreat rules are such that the rear hex still is the path of least resistance so to speak.

5. Squares: Squares are not allowed to be formed in (or move into) covered terrain. If the cavalry can't get to you why form square?

Comment: This rule has been superseded by later updates to the Main Program. Infantry no longer can form square in Village, Woods, Orchard, Marsh hexes. I did not check for Rough terrain but I assume it also applies to that type too. Probably can remove this rule.

6. ZOC's and Retreats: Individual officers and wagons can never be used to prevent retreats.

Comment: Revise the wording for #2, remove the comment about the enemy objective hexes, and remove this rule.

7. Units may be voluntarily removed from the map board without penalty unless those units would be isolated with zone of control (if zoc extended beyond the map edge).

Comment: the unit not being on the map denies its own army its use. This creates the old "end of the world" syndrome. if the unit wants to retreat (that is use the Weak ZOC rule to move one hex) why should it be stopped? Note: I try my best in all of my scenarios to create sufficient map space so that this does not occur .. if it does I assume that the unit runs away or "suave qui peut" from the enemy.

8. NEW: Formed units with a strength of 25 or less cannot move next to enemy units, may not be used to block retreat routes, and should generally be withdrawn from the front lines whenever possible.

Question: but if it accidentally moves next to an enemy unit this opens up a temporary rules discussion. I say that these kinds of units end up being swept away. However, gamey play abounds in these games and so I would say let it stand. However, 37 men pretty much is useless as well. And if 25 men got into cover in a village they COULD make access to that point difficult even hold up entire battalions for a short time. It was done ;)

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Husaren-Regiment Hessen-Kassel
Infanterie-Brigade Hessen-Kassel
Königlich-Preußisches Armee-Korps
Scenario Designer for Napoleonic Battles series - John Tiller Software
http://friendsofwargaming.com/support-bill-peters.html


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 Post subject: Re: Master of Europe Tourney - MOE V
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 6:59 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:18 am
Posts: 5231
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I toss my hat into the ring. I own all of the games in the series. I would to agree prior to the game with my opponent to use another set of house rules, however, one that is simpler yet includes the rule that either NME or EM is used for melees.

The Skirmisher rules are too restrictive. A simple 5-6 hex house rule (in all terrain not just open) has worked in all of my games for years.

I add in I want to invoke a rule that says that no supply wagon can be deliberately used to block LOS from enemy fire. In other words wagons were meant to resupply your troops - not as a shield wall from fire.

Sign me up and I can play the French side if needed. If the rule about sides is enforced then I will sit out ... in other words give my place to someone else if a strict 1:1 Allied vs. French tourny rule is enforced.

Enjoy!

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General der Kavallerie Wilhelm Prinz Peters von Dennewitz
Husaren-Regiment Hessen-Kassel
Infanterie-Brigade Hessen-Kassel
Königlich-Preußisches Armee-Korps
Scenario Designer for Napoleonic Battles series - John Tiller Software
http://friendsofwargaming.com/support-bill-peters.html


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 Post subject: Re: Master of Europe Tourney - MOE V
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 1:53 am 
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Joined: Mon May 28, 2001 4:19 pm
Posts: 64
Location: Slovenia
I can take my rusted sword out and depart on the battlefield again.
I haven't played a game for quite a while now, but with dropping the cable, I have more time to pursue more worthwhile distractions. :)

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Duc d'Eylau et Comte de St. Pol

3e Brigade, 1ere Division
V Corps d'Armee

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 Post subject: Re: Master of Europe Tourney - MOE V
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 2:35 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:18 am
Posts: 5231
Location:
We played long ago, Dejan, during the days of the Battleground series. I still have (painful) memories of you defeating my forces in one of those games. It would be an honor to draw you as my opponent.

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Husaren-Regiment Hessen-Kassel
Infanterie-Brigade Hessen-Kassel
Königlich-Preußisches Armee-Korps
Scenario Designer for Napoleonic Battles series - John Tiller Software
http://friendsofwargaming.com/support-bill-peters.html


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 Post subject: Re: Master of Europe Tourney - MOE V
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 5:30 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 10:57 am
Posts: 2212
Location: Canada
Bill Peters wrote:
House Rules questions:

S.1 Skirmishers in clear terrain must remain within 3 hexes of any unit of their brigade when an enemy unit is in sight and is within 20 hexes.

Q. Does this mean that skirmishers can form a chain of themselves as long as they are within 3 hexes of another skirmisher? (Its why I use the phrase "Formed unit" in my house rule)



S.4 Skirmishers that are deployed in the open at the beginning of a scenario may remain in place or may advance for cover. If they advance towards the enemy without formed inf they must make it to cover in one move.

Q. So continuing on ... does this mean that the chain of pure skirmishers cannot advance on the enemy if they cannot make it to cover? And what about the French skirmishers at Waterloo that did advance to the main ridge which Picton was deployed behind. There was no cover in that case AND their parent battalions were well to the rear. Which is why I use a 5 or 6 hex skirmisher leash rule with the idea being that the skirmisher is tied to any formed unit in its parent brigade .. and not another skirmisher or to prohibit it from advancing in the open.

Bottom line: skirmishers were deployed to either:

1. Put fire on the enemy.
2. Protect its parent formed units from enemy skirmisher fire.
3. Occupying a hard location like a village, chateau or other closed terrain location.

If they move in the open they are subject to being overrun by cavalry pure and simple. I think this rule was devised more for the older Talonsoft Battleground series and should have a caveat attached to it.

S.5 NEW: Cavalry units with a strength of less than 25 men cannot be used in covered terrain to block road movement of larger units (also see miscellaneous rule #8).

Comment: this rule has been rendered useless by the fact that infantry can now melee cavalry in closed terrain. Is this rule still in force? What if a player moves a cavalry unit through the woods-road and his opponent believes he has violated the rule? Seems like this rule could cause more arguing than it solves. Esp. now that the cavalry can be eliminated in a melee ....

C.1 Cavalry may not charge into covered terrain (villages, towns, woods, marshes, chateaux, etc.). They may however continue a charge-melee into one hex of covered terrain but the first melee must have occurred against a noncovered terrain hex. Cavalry may charge across hedges, embankments, and streams.

Not sure why anyone would want to continue into a town after being Disordered. What is the difference if the unit charges into an empty Village hex or if it continues into an empty Village hex? I dont see a difference. The cavalry is Disordered on any subsequent melee.

2. Leaders and supply wagons will not be used to take enemy objective hexes or to prevent the retreat of enemy units.

Comment: Routed units and these types cannot change the possession of a VP (objective) location. Secondly, in a test I ran today if a leader is a rear hex the enemy unit overruns it during the retreat. The same could not be said of a wagon. This rule is still very much valid. The retreat rules are such that the rear hex still is the path of least resistance so to speak.

5. Squares: Squares are not allowed to be formed in (or move into) covered terrain. If the cavalry can't get to you why form square?

Comment: This rule has been superseded by later updates to the Main Program. Infantry no longer can form square in Village, Woods, Orchard, Marsh hexes. I did not check for Rough terrain but I assume it also applies to that type too. Probably can remove this rule.

6. ZOC's and Retreats: Individual officers and wagons can never be used to prevent retreats.

Comment: Revise the wording for #2, remove the comment about the enemy objective hexes, and remove this rule.

7. Units may be voluntarily removed from the map board without penalty unless those units would be isolated with zone of control (if zoc extended beyond the map edge).

Comment: the unit not being on the map denies its own army its use. This creates the old "end of the world" syndrome. if the unit wants to retreat (that is use the Weak ZOC rule to move one hex) why should it be stopped? Note: I try my best in all of my scenarios to create sufficient map space so that this does not occur .. if it does I assume that the unit runs away or "suave qui peut" from the enemy.

8. NEW: Formed units with a strength of 25 or less cannot move next to enemy units, may not be used to block retreat routes, and should generally be withdrawn from the front lines whenever possible.

Question: but if it accidentally moves next to an enemy unit this opens up a temporary rules discussion. I say that these kinds of units end up being swept away. However, gamey play abounds in these games and so I would say let it stand. However, 37 men pretty much is useless as well. And if 25 men got into cover in a village they COULD make access to that point difficult even hold up entire battalions for a short time. It was done ;)


Bill.. to be truthfull.. i am using the rules from the previous MOE.

I reallly do not have answers to all the questions.

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 Post subject: Re: Master of Europe Tourney - MOE V
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2017 5:33 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 10:57 am
Posts: 2212
Location: Canada
Bill Peters wrote:
I toss my hat into the ring. I own all of the games in the series. I would to agree prior to the game with my opponent to use another set of house rules, however, one that is simpler yet includes the rule that either NME or EM is used for melees.

The Skirmisher rules are too restrictive. A simple 5-6 hex house rule (in all terrain not just open) has worked in all of my games for years.

I add in I want to invoke a rule that says that no supply wagon can be deliberately used to block LOS from enemy fire. In other words wagons were meant to resupply your troops - not as a shield wall from fire.

Sign me up and I can play the French side if needed. If the rule about sides is enforced then I will sit out ... in other words give my place to someone else if a strict 1:1 Allied vs. French tourny rule is enforced.

Enjoy!


If you join, it will have to be the allied side.... assuming you are ok with that, you are in.

As for your comments/suggestions about the rules.... the rules are listed...

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 Post subject: Re: Master of Europe Tourney - MOE V
PostPosted: Tue May 16, 2017 8:41 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 10:18 am
Posts: 5231
Location:
John - ok - I am in. I promise to break every house rule listed!

:frenchlol:

I generally keep my house rules to a limit. The less the easier for us older fellows :frenchcool

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Husaren-Regiment Hessen-Kassel
Infanterie-Brigade Hessen-Kassel
Königlich-Preußisches Armee-Korps
Scenario Designer for Napoleonic Battles series - John Tiller Software
http://friendsofwargaming.com/support-bill-peters.html


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 Post subject: Re: Master of Europe Tourney - MOE V
PostPosted: Wed May 17, 2017 7:14 am 
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Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 4:28 pm
Posts: 158
Location: Poland
is here place for me too yet?

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2e Bataillon, 3e Regiment des Grenadiers a Pied de la Garde Imperiale (Hollandais)
1er Brigade l'Infanterie de la Moyenne Garde


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