Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC) :: View topic - Upcoming Nap Battles Series Updates

Regarding artillery, if a piece didn't change why should the fire values/ranges change, so I'm for standardization where it makes sense, of course of things changed because of changes in components like gunpowder, projectile, etc. or if a type of gun originates now from a different source(for example the Bavarian 12lb, at first of Austrian then of French origin), these have to be adjusted and differ from the standard values to depict the differences.
If this results in a general trend of less fire-value at short ranges but more range & fire-value at greater distances I also welcome that.
With the new rules from Wellington's Peninsular game coming to the rest of the series we can lessen fire-values at short range likely without any impact, and if range & fire-values on higher distances get bigger it will at least in part shift the artillery to be useful at greater ranges.
For the PDF, I would like to see as much additional info added as possible, at least to those that lack currently any info like the Dutch, Saxons etc..
Also such a PDF is very valuable and should be added to the next round of patches.

Regarding Wagram & Eckmuhl, getting them in line with the 10min. standard would surely not only be welcome by me. If there is the need for playtesting the changes could be provided for now as Beta or even open Beta, and after a final adjustment applied not to this but the next round of patches.
Besides getting them in line with other games standard turn length it is always a benefit of expanding the content of a game.

---------------------------Bills comments below-------------------

Hi Christian, Here are the 12lb gun values for the French A weapon from the PDT file line: from the Pen10.pdt file from WPW:

A 1 15 2 13 3 11 4 7 5 5 8 3 12 2 16 1 -1

No change at close range from what I am using in the games i worked on. Again here is the one from Leipzig:

Leipzig:
N 1 15 2 13 3 11 4 7 6 6 7 5 10 3 12 2 16 1 -1

The differences are at the mid range. I rated the French 12lb gun higher at that range. Ranges 6-10. Not a great deal of difference really and no reason why I should do a lot of testing before I make the changes.

As for the naming schemes, if information is totally lacking I suggest to simply name it "CO XY" where CO simply stands for Commanding Officer and XY for the name of the unit. By this you should be able to even find regimental COs and stack them with their regiment.
Sure that will not help with leader losses and the generation of new leaders by the game, but that would indeed need deeper changes in the program what is something for the WDS guys to do.

Author:	Bill Peters [ Thu Mar 05, 2020 2:29 am ]
Post subject:	Upcoming Nap Battles Series Updates
Guys - the Napoleonic series will be getting the next round of updates this year. My part is to look over the feedback and the components of the games I worked on and submit an update for each. To date I have an update for every game to submit. I have a couple of questions to ask as it will be very important on if I do more work on the games. So here we go: 1. Do you favor me standardizing ALL of the artillery values and ranges for the PDT files in each game I produced? Now to give you some background on this: a. During production of CEF I drew up a new set of ranges and values for ALL artillery throughout the entire French Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars. Things like improved Russian powder for the post CEF period (1810 and onward) as well as other national characteristics were discussed with a group of individuals to include Paco, Bill Cann and others from the playtest team. b. These values were used in CEF. c. Howitzers and Licornes got extended ranges with diminishing values in that short range but higher values in the mid range. d. I have been updating the Weapons Effectiveness Chart (WEC.pdf) files as I go along to coincide with what is in each game. Given time I will produce a WEC.pdf file for each game that does not have one. e. You must remember that the values for firepower are the same pretty much whether its a 10 or 15 minute turn. The idea here is that with the Auto DF fire by the PC, and increased movement ability in a 15 min. move, theoretically you should see more losses in a 15 min. scenario. However, that is rarely the case as with more turns comes more melees where the losses really pile up. So whether a 10 or 15 min. format the PDT file fire value will remain the same. 2. Have you noted the new Howiter/Licorne fire and range values in CEF and what is your opinion on them? Warren Bajan worked with me to come up with the concept that a howitzer has a dead zone, in part, where its effectiveness is less and in this case its that 4 hex area. Move up to 5 or 6 hexes and the effectiveness improves with the firing of exploding rounds. Note: I finished up with the Campaign Bautzen PDT files this week. Once I have checked the Leipzig and 1814 WEC.pdf files I will have finished the first round of changes for the updates. If you really feel that we should standardize the values across the games I worked on let me know. For instance: Eckmuhl agrees with Marengo where it regards a French 12lb gun. Sample entries from a PDT file from each game: (read: Weapons letter, range - value - if you see a gap in the range then go to the higher number range value and include any shorter ranges - example: if you see 4 8 and then 7 6 the value for range 5 and 6 will be 6) Marengo: A 1 16 2 14 3 12 4 8 7 6 10 3 12 2 15 1 -1 Eckumuhl: A 1 16 2 14 3 12 4 8 7 6 10 3 12 2 15 1 -1 However, for Leipzig the ranges are: A 1 16 2 14 3 12 4 8 7 6 10 3 12 2 16 1 -1 The sole difference being the extreme range (16 vs. 15) Now in some cases differences are to be expected. Russian artillery values in Austerlitz thru CEF will less than in Leipzig. Here is the current comparison of a Russian 12lb (Medium) gun in Austerlitz vs. one in Leipzig: Austerlitz: Leipzig: N 1 15 2 13 3 11 4 7 6 6 7 5 10 3 12 2 16 1 -1 Austerlitz: N 1 16 2 14 3 12 4 8 7 6 10 3 12 2 15 1 -1 As you can see the Austerlitz 12lb Medium lacks the range of the one in Leipzig but has a higher set of values. Now compare it with the one from CEF: N 1 13 2 10 3 7 4 5 5 4 6 6 7 5 8 4 11 2 18 1 -1 Longer range but less values at close range. Our group did a comprehensive review of all of the values. If you like to look them over here is the PDF. Frankly I would like to see the series standardized at this point. It would be nice to settle this issue once and for all. Note: the values in the other games in the series correspond to each other more or less (Waterloo and NRC ... the Peninsular games ... etc). That is up to Rich White, Rich Hamilton to go over. This is for any title I worked on. Also: the later values for Hesse-Darmstadt need to be added to the chart. Other than that I believe that the chart is complete.

Author:	Andy Moss [ Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:21 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Upcoming Nap Battles Series Updates
I can see the value of standardization certainly. My beef is mainly with movement and terrain however. For artillery, well if technology changed throughout the period, then there's a strong historical argument for non-standardization. Really looking forward to the updates.

Author:	Bill Peters [ Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Upcoming Nap Battles Series Updates
Andy Moss wrote: I can see the value of standardization certainly. My beef is mainly with movement and terrain however. For artillery, well if technology changed throughout the period, then there's a strong historical argument for non-standardization. Really looking forward to the updates. So what you are saying is that a Woods hex in one game costs more or less than in another? I could work on that too. The movement rates, of course, are based on whether its a 10 or 15 min. turn format. The Movement costs for terrain should be the same. ..... I can add that to my list of things to do for each game.

Author:	Andy Moss [ Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:09 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Upcoming Nap Battles Series Updates
I was thinking principally of the different MP's in wagram and Eckmuhl, it can get confusing to old folks like me.

Author:	Bill Peters [ Fri Mar 06, 2020 12:24 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Upcoming Nap Battles Series Updates
Someone requested that we offer 10 min. versions for the Wagram and Eckmuhl games... I would rather do that in MODS than in an official update for the reason that they would need some playtesting first. I hate putting out new scenarios in an update. Then Rich gets emails about them if there are issues with them. Its on my list eventually to do a 10 min. MOD for those two games .... I am wondering how Teugn-Hausen would be like with 10 min. turns. The same with Hunt For Davout the perennial favorite. So yes, that is irritating to many. That Wagram and Eckmuhl have that older format. If you would like to do some playtesting on shorter scenarios let me know. I can set up a 10 min. version of Teugn-Hausen pretty easily. I found a 10 min. PDT file for Teugn-Hausen in my Eckmuhl folder but no scenarios are using it. Means I can easily adapt the historical scenario file (a copy) to use the 10 min. PDT file. The historical scenario has 20 turns so that means that the 10 min. version will have 30 turns. Its 5 hours long .....

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Upcoming Nap Battles Series Updates https://wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16256	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Andy Moss [ Fri Mar 06, 2020 5:51 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Upcoming Nap Battles Series Updates
I can certainly playtest short scenarios if you wish. I'd draw the line at a company level Wagram however

Author:	Clint Matthews [ Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:01 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Upcoming Nap Battles Series Updates
any chance of naming the un named leaders with specific names. anonymous 1 anonymous 2 or phantom 1 Phantom 2 and so on or fictitious names so each leader can be found when searched for. the program will not let you find a leader that is named phantom or anonymous. It will list all leaders with anonymous or phantom and default to the first one listed. the program also will not find any leader with the same name. It will list them, but will not let you select the second one listed. there are leaders with the same name in Leipzig. I think I noticed two.

Author:	Andy Moss [ Fri Mar 06, 2020 11:30 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Upcoming Nap Battles Series Updates
Col Anonymous is simply a construct of keeping the command chain. Presumably in reality somebody took charge but nobody knows who. I'm unsure if it's possible to rename 1,2.....etc. Besides, who would remember Col Anonymous 19 was in charge of X formation? Unknown is slightly different - we simply do not know who he was historically. And is replaced by Col Anonymous or a subordinate if hit. I'd guess Unknown 1,2 etc could be put into an OOB. Not sure if search could locate them then. I'd sooner that than have a fictional name. Whatever, I don't think Bill wants to do that. Small scenario changes and additions; small changes to the pdt and oob files. Not a major revamp.

Author:	Clint Matthews [ Fri Mar 06, 2020 1:03 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Upcoming Nap Battles Series Updates
the only reason i am mentioning it is it's impossible to find a leader if a leader gets lost during heated engagements. the purpose of the "find a leader" ....is to find the leader. naming all leaders ano or phantom defeats the purpose of this player aid. I was told it would be looked at by support. I personally think its a major bug.

Author:	Bill Peters [ Fri Mar 06, 2020 5:19 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Upcoming Nap Battles Series Updates
Hi Clint - I hear ya on the leader naming issues. I did a quick check of the games and Phantom is showing up a lot (see results below). Each title varies on how I handled the "unknown leader" naming scheme. Tell you what ... if you want to help out with this I could use the help. Let me know and we can form a "subgroup" and get it done. What I can promise you is that any leader that is "Col Phantom" in the OB file will get a anonymous name like I did for CEF. Check out that game (expecially the Russians) to see how I did that. Thus Col. Phantom could become "Staff Officer-3" or something like that. Now its a lot of work as whenever that leader (in its unique ORG) is used it has to use be changed to use the SAME NAME in all of the other OBs for its specific ORG in the command chain. So I just cant open up the OBs and give all of the "Col Phantom" leaders a random number after "Staff Officer." I like to make sure that if the leader is in the "AdvGd/Right Wing" then in other OBs I would find that leader and give it the same name. Usually I tie it in with the regiments in the brigade. If this sounds like something you would like to help out on we can get this going right away. Hey, if we only fix 2-4 games that works, right. Better than leaving it as is. I just need some help on this project ... I did a quick search for "Phantom" in the OB files for some of the games. Here were the results: Eckmuhl - only TWO leaders - I can fix this ... one is a French Colonel commanding cavalry and the other is an Austrian GM commanding infantry. Both were in the more recent Soave OB (which was added in via an update ....). Austerlitz - an entirely different matter .... it was found 87 times in 19 files. More of a project for someone that can help me determine the correct new name for the "Phantom" leaders in the SAME brigades across all of the OB files where it shows up. Wagram - never uses Phantom - might use some other name for unknown named leaders. 1814 - one of the BIG JOBS for us to do - used 378 times in 27 files! Definitely a PROJECT and a HALF. Marengo - 169 times in 37 files - less than 1814 - more than Austerlitz CEF - not used ... I had decided to finally use a unique naming system for EACH leader. And I could do the rest of the games but you get the idea..... I will not be able to give them their own picture. The Leaders.bmp file number will have to remain the same as what its using in the OB file AND if they differ from OB to OB for the SAME leader well we will just have to leave it alone. This would be a leader renaming project and nothing more. If you want to help out please respond here or Private Message me ....

Author:	Clint Matthews [ Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Upcoming Nap Battles Series Updates
I would love to help. what do I have to do to get started?

Author:	Christian Hecht [ Sat Mar 07, 2020 3:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Upcoming Nap Battles Series Updates
Regarding artillery, if a piece didn't change why should the fire values/ranges change, so I'm for standardization where it makes sense, of course of things changed because of changes in components like gunpowder, projectile, etc. or if a type of gun originates now from a different source(for example the Bavarian 12lb, at first of Austrian then of French origin), these have to be adjusted and differ from the standard values to depict the differences. If this results in a general trend of less fire-value at short ranges but more range & fire-value at greater distances I also welcome that. With the new rules from Wellington's Peninsular game coming to the rest of the series we can lessen fire-values at short range likely without any impact, and if range & fire-values on higher distances get bigger it will at least in part shift the artillery to be useful at greater ranges. For the PDF, I would like to see as much additional info added as possible, at least to those that lack currently any info like the Dutch, Saxons etc.. Also such a PDF is very valuable and should be added to the next round of patches. Regarding Wagram & Eckmuhl, getting them in line with the 10min. standard would surely not only be welcome by me. If there is the need for playtesting the changes could be provided for now as Beta or even open Beta, and after a final adjustment applied not to this but the next round of patches. Besides getting them in line with other games standard turn length it is always a benefit of expanding the content of a game. As for the naming schemes, if information is totally lacking I suggest to simply name it "CO XY" where CO simply stands for Commanding Officer and XY for the name of the unit. By this you should be able to even find regimental COs and stack them with their regiment. Sure that will not help with leader losses and the generation of new leaders by the game, but that would indeed need deeper changes in the program what is something for the WDS guys to do.

Author:	Bill Peters [ Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:13 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Upcoming Nap Battles Series Updates
Christian Hecht wrote: Regarding artillery, if a piece didn't change why should the fire values/ranges change, so I'm for standardization where it makes sense, of course of things changed because of changes in components like gunpowder, projectile, etc. or if a type of gun originates now from a different source(for example the Bavarian 12lb, at first of Austrian then of French origin), these have to be adjusted and differ from the standard values to depict the differences. If this results in a general trend of less fire-value at short ranges but more range & fire-value at greater distances I also welcome that. With the new rules from Wellington's Peninsular game coming to the rest of the series we can lessen fire-values at short range likely without any impact, and if range & fire-values on higher distances get bigger it will at least in part shift the artillery to be useful at greater ranges. For the PDF, I would like to see as much additional info added as possible, at least to those that lack currently any info like the Dutch, Saxons etc.. Also such a PDF is very valuable and should be added to the next round of patches. Regarding Wagram & Eckmuhl, getting them in line with the 10min. standard would surely not only be welcome by me. If there is the need for playtesting the changes could be provided for now as Beta or even open Beta, and after a final adjustment applied not to this but the next round of patches. Besides getting them in line with other games standard turn length it is always a benefit of expanding the content of a game. ---------------------------Bills comments below------------------- Hi Christian, Here are the 12lb gun values for the French A weapon from the PDT file line: from the Pen10.pdt file from WPW: A 1 15 2 13 3 11 4 7 5 5 8 3 12 2 16 1 -1 No change at close range from what I am using in the games i worked on. Again here is the one from Leipzig: Leipzig: N 1 15 2 13 3 11 4 7 6 6 7 5 10 3 12 2 16 1 -1 The differences are at the mid range. I rated the French 12lb gun higher at that range. Ranges 6-10. Not a great deal of difference really and no reason why I should do a lot of testing before I make the changes. As for the naming schemes, if information is totally lacking I suggest to simply name it "CO XY" where CO simply stands for Commanding Officer and XY for the name of the unit. By this you should be able to even find regimental COs and stack them with their regiment. Sure that will not help with leader losses and the generation of new leaders by the game, but that would indeed need deeper changes in the program what is something for the WDS guys to do.

Author:	Bill Peters [ Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:14 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Upcoming Nap Battles Series Updates
Clint Matthews wrote: I would love to help. what do I have to do to get started? Hi Clint - let me get back to you on that. I will let you know when there is something to look at.

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Author:	Bill Peters [ Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:16 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Upcoming Nap Battles Series Updates
Andy Moss wrote: I can certainly playtest short scenarios if you wish. I'd draw the line at a company level Wagram however LOL Andy - yes no company level testing required.