Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)
https://wargame.ch/board/nwc/

The Battle of Dennewitz - Map Revision
https://wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17274		 Page 3 of 4
Author:  Bill Peters [ Sat Oct 21, 2023 4:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Battle of Dennewitz - Map Revision
Thanks, Christian for the map key & Cezary for verifying it. I will update the map this afternoon and post it soon.

:frenchsalute: :thumbsup:
Author:  Bill Peters [ Sat Oct 21, 2023 4:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Battle of Dennewitz - Map Revision
Map updated. Here is all of the files for the update so far.
Author:  Christian Hecht [ Sat Oct 28, 2023 5:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Battle of Dennewitz - Map Revision
So far the reply for the scorched earth policy of the Prussian was a simple "no they didn't".
It seems that rather the French looted and burned when chased Blücher into Silesia, but even that was not systematically order but the soldiers did so.

It's said that Napoleon had ordered the systematic evacuation of cattle, burning of resources etc. to harm to the allies, when leaving the right bank of the Elbe, but no hard evidence for such an order was found, so maybe just a rumor.

So I think there is no damage to be depicted in that area.


Regarding the last mail corespondents, changes look good.
Gardens are really hard to place, we must alway see that it has to be a garden of considerable size not just some turf were 5 skirmishers can hide. Hard to tell if such thing exited anywhere beside maybe around Jüterborg.
Problem is also that we just used battles maps and not civilian maps, not sure if there are maps close to 1813 that could be used for a different more detailed view on the area.

Bill can you please attach the latest version from the 27th?
Author:  Bill Peters [ Sun Oct 29, 2023 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Battle of Dennewitz - Map Revision
Christian - here are the latest files for the Dennewitz revision work. Nothing has changed since the last time I posted them I think but just making sure.
Author:  Christian Hecht [ Wed Nov 01, 2023 3:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Battle of Dennewitz - Map Revision
Thanks Bill.

Here something very fine, a high quality map with lot of detail on it, by far the best that I found so far.
It also depicts various positions and movements of units over the course of the battle. That makes it not easy to read but again gives so much detail that is hard to be found anywhere else.
I'm sure there is stuff to be pulled from it to further improve the scenario.

Map:
https://tudigit.ulb.tu-darmstadt.de/show/K5408/1
You can view in with javascript directly on the page or make a PDF download, while the later is compressed it still of very good quality.

Explanation of the alphabetical unit legend(in German):
https://books.google.de/books?id=JI1WAA ... &q&f=false

Attached the German map legend and my translation of it to English:
Author:  Bill Peters [ Thu Nov 02, 2023 10:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Battle of Dennewitz - Map Revision
In my game with Dean Webster, he was able to attack a Prussian battery of the 4th Korps on turn 3 which I had moved using the open terrain to try and have it escape from harm. The location of that battery and others in that corps were changed so that they no longer have to cut through the fields to move with the rest of the corps to escape from the French if so desired. The entire set is posted her just to keep everything together.
Author:  Christian Hecht [ Fri Nov 03, 2023 9:52 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Battle of Dennewitz - Map Revision
Thanks Bill, in my above post I have now attached the map legend as zipped text file, first in the original German and then translated into English, hope that proves helpful for you and others to better understand the map.

So far I have one map request. It is noted in the boocklet and on the map that some Prussians move through the swamps between Dennewitz and Rohrbeck.
Maybe we could at a single ford there? Locking at the map it should be at 124,56 to 124,57.


And a request regarding the French OOB. Its seems that the current OOB is the "on paper" OOB, but looking into the booklet on p. 69 it is noted that:
"Bei dem IVten Corps befand sich die Cavallerie-Division Lorges und die Polen; die Division de France war dem VIIten Corps und die Division Fournier dem XIIten beigegeben; das 2te polnische Infanterie - Regiment wurde der Division Durutte zugeteilt;die übrige Reiterei folgte dem XIIten Corps."
Translated to:
"With the IVth Corps was the Cavalry Division of Lorges and the Poles; the Division de France was attached to the VIIth Corps and the Fournier Division to the XIIth; the 2nd Polish Infantry Regiment was assigned to the Durutte Division; the rest of the cavalry followed the XIIth Corps."

I flew over some sources and indeed I somehow can't that find a trace of the III Cavalry-Corps or Arrighi in action, sure the divisions are mentioned but not the III CC itself. Same counts for the 27th Polish division.
That is also supported by some more detailed material I found, check out these 3 PDFs by Thierry Louchet:
http://www.planete-napoleon.com/docs/18 ... tembre.pdf
http://www.planete-napoleon.com/docs/18 ... _Part1.pdf
http://www.planete-napoleon.com/docs/18 ... _Part2.pdf
The later two gives extremely detailed OOBs and support that the cavalry of III CC was split to the other corps and didn't act under a corps command, and the Polish 27th division was split to and didn't act as a division.

So if all that is correct it would surely impact the course of the battle as players tend and are advised to go along the OOB, they would now instead a concentrated use of the III CC use the cavalry divisions in support of the respective corps they are attached to.
Author:  Bill Peters [ Wed Nov 08, 2023 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Battle of Dennewitz - Map Revision
Christian - I sent you an email. I would prefer to discuss changes to the Dennewitz OB and the ramifications of its effects on the battle in email rather than here. Its simpler for me.

The ford is fine with me. The OB changes will have to wait until I finish playtesting the revised version of the scenario. We can even play a second game if needed.

So direct all comments to my email on this. Thanks!
Author:  Bill Peters [ Mon Nov 13, 2023 12:24 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Battle of Dennewitz - Map Revision
So Christian and I emailed about the OB and there will be some ORG changes for the French which should help them with the command tests for the III Corps Cav divisions that were attached to the other corps in the Army of Berlin. The way I intend on handling it is:

Lorge' Div will be under IV Corps - Bertrand

Defrance will remain directly under Arrighi Casanova's command keeping the III Corps Cav ORG intact.

Fournier will be under the XII Corps command

Christian sent the info I needed on the horse artillery batteries and they will be placed under the command of the divisions they accompanied. This looks like this:

5/5 Horse Regt was attached to Fournier's 6th DC.
4/6 Horse Regt and 2/1 Horse Regt were attached to Defrance's 4th DC.
1/5 Horse Regt was attached to Lorge's 5th DC.

Other changes he suggested were for the 27th Division to be completely dissolved with the 2nd Polish Ligne going to Durutte's div and the 4th Polish Ligne being removed altogether as it may be that they were left behind to garrison Wittenberg. For now, the 4th Polish Ligne will remain with Bertrand's IV Corps.

The light cavalry brigade of Polish troopers, was with Lorge, Christian says but I am going to leave them under the 27th Division command, along with the 4th Polish Ligne. This allows them to be a "combined arms command" for the French player. I find that huge groups of cavalry in the series really do not accomplish a lot. Its best to have infantry and cavalry together so they can support each other. Add in a battery or two as well. It only takes four squares to stop an entire (sole) cavalry division. Better to keep the Poles together for now.

Anyone is welcome to come up with an alternate OB that moves the remaining groups of troops into new ORGs using the text editor. Remember that the big reason for the revision of the battle was to redefine the map. We have done that and that remains the primary focus.

I just as easily could have pulled one or two of the brigades of the Prussian 3rd Korps Reserve Cavalry out of that division and attached them direction to brigades in that corps but I chose not to. If the Allied player chooses to move them out of the division commander's range that is their choice. Historically, I have seen little impact on doing that in my games. I have yet to see those cavalry brigades fail to recover from Disorder which really was the original intention of redefining the French III Cav. Corps. The idea is that with the cav division directly under the command of the corps that they fought with will make for better Disorder recovery. That is true but its not the driving force of the revision, its a nice historical touch and I really appreciated Christian's input on this. I know that many of the club members that crave historical accuracy do too.

Thanks to both Christian and Cezary on their input. Still not there yet but the map work is pretty much done and we will go with what we have for the playtesting.

I will work on this over the holidays and have it ready for a second round of playtest gaming.
Author:  Christian Hecht [ Mon Nov 20, 2023 12:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Battle of Dennewitz - Map Revision
So far so good.
I would attach the polish cavalry to Lorge's division, he is the only one with just chasseuers, while the other light DC has hussars and Defrance's is a heavy DC.
The lancer cavalry should give Lorge's cavalry some much needed attack strength, on the other had the small amount of polish cavalry would be better protected within Lorge's division especially because they are lancers and have trouble on the defense.

So far I couldn't come up with more details for the Poles, they especially seem to have a bad reporting level what makes it a problem to gain clear and precise informations.
Author:  Bill Peters [ Tue Nov 21, 2023 1:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Battle of Dennewitz - Map Revision
Christian Hecht wrote:
So far so good.
I would attach the polish cavalry to Lorge's division, he is the only one with just chasseuers, while the other light DC has hussars and Defrance's is a heavy DC.
The lancer cavalry should give Lorge's cavalry some much needed attack strength, on the other had the small amount of polish cavalry would be better protected within Lorge's division especially because they are lancers and have trouble on the defense.

So far I couldn't come up with more details for the Poles, they especially seem to have a bad reporting level what makes it a problem to gain clear and precise informations.


I prefer to leave the Poles under a division leader where they can act independent of Lorge if needed. Why? Well if you want Lorge on the left and need cavalry on the right flank you have more flexibility. Your method would have more cavalry for Lorge to have to manage.

So I am sticking to that plan. This is not a cavalry corps. Its an infantry corps and the idea is to support the corps not build a large cavalry reserve unit. And there is nothing that says that they cannot work in concert. But the idea is to allow the Poles to be used separately if needed.
Author:  SLudwig [ Tue Nov 21, 2023 6:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Battle of Dennewitz - Map Revision
Very neat work you guys are doing! :thumbsup:
Author:  Bill Peters [ Thu Nov 23, 2023 2:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Battle of Dennewitz - Map Revision
Scott - my playtest game with Dean Webster is at the 12:50 PM turn (11) and I can say right off that its really been worth the time and energy spent by the three of us here and Dean and I in the game.

Round 2 will feature the OB changes. I am hoping to pass that off to a couple of veteran players to see how they do with it.
Author:  Dean Webster [ Fri Nov 24, 2023 6:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: The Battle of Dennewitz - Map Revision
Have to agree with Bill. it's been a very interesting game to date. I've only played the shorter "Cauldron" variant before, but the battle seems to make more sense with the extra roads and missing fords.

Deployment seems to have naturally fallen into a very similar pattern to that displayed on the map supplied by Christian earlier.
Author:  Bill Peters [ Tue Dec 12, 2023 2:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: The Battle of Dennewitz - Map Revision
At this point, the Prussians are pressing the IV Corps position. Dean has done a very good job of denying me the main position west of Dennewitz but the numbers are just too much.

With Prussians attacking from both flanks is only a matter of time before Ney orders Bertrand and IV Corps to pull back.
Page 3 of 4 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
https://www.phpbb.com/