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| artillary question http://www.wargame.ch/board/acwgc/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17710 |
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| Author: | D. Groce [ Mon Jun 04, 2012 3:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | artillary question |
Why is it I can capture/overrun enemy guns and fire them without using troops to man them, but if I recapture my own guns I have to use troops to man them? Do the enemy troops stay with thier guns and fire them for me, not likely, or is this just a flaw in the system? |
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| Author: | Blake [ Mon Jun 04, 2012 5:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: artillary question |
I always assumed the captured Yankee gunners finally saw the light and joined our glorious cause! Actually, thats a good point. I never gave it much thought before. Flaw is my guess. |
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| Author: | Robert [ Thu Jun 07, 2012 1:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: artillary question |
This is a really frustrating issue with the artillery capture option, it makes no sense that an enemy supply wagon or a unit with only one man can fire a captured 6 gun battery all day long but if you take the guns back you must re-crew to fire the guns again, that and un-crewed guns blocking passage on wooded roads/trails, the loss of points if you leave the captured guns unattended etc.. Artillery capture was a good idea that hasn’t quite worked out in practice. I prefer not to use it anymore. |
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| Author: | D. Groce [ Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: artillary question |
All good points Robert, and the reasons I also do not like the arty capture rule, but there are some that do for reasons that escape my pea brain. |
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| Author: | KWhitehead [ Thu Jun 07, 2012 9:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: artillary question |
The game over simplifies capture and recapture of guns but it works relatively well for simulating that guns were only captured by the side that held the field at the end of the day. It fixes losing entire batteries because they were briefly overrun by a melee but at the price of some odd happening when other game rules interact with it. It reproduces some historic situations while also making some gamey ones. While I am not wholey sold on the rules I do think it forces players to use their artillery more like it was during the CW or risk losing them. I wish it were a more complex handling so all the special situations would be better handled but I doubt it will happen. Some things like wagons firing them you can fix if HPS doesn't by just making a house rule. I never tried to fire one with a wagon so I just assume it works. Probably should be a club rule like the one for not using wagons to block fire. The one man firing the guns is unusual situation an isn't worth a lot of time fixing. Most regiments won't get that low and still survive. The capture rules allow the guns to be turned on the enemy but if you really look at this it is only effective when the fighting is still around the guns. Because artillery fire takes a double shift for down for each drop in morale level the "F" rating makes using these guns at medium distance a waste of ammo. It is a nice little feature that I wish had been more restricted. The original owner having to recrew the guns to use them is one of those make it easy to program rules. They had to have a way to recover the guns and move them so they put this in instead of the occupying the hex to fire for the owning side. It would have been a nice touch if they had allowed infantry to fire the guns like the enemy and the original crew return depleted to recrew the guns like some of the board games do. The major problem with the capture rules isn't how it works but what it can do to some scenarios. None were designed allowing for this. Some scenarios where one side is suppose to hold the field are thrown out of balance by the rules and how they affect Victory Points. Under the capture rules you have to occupy the hex to get VP for it. In fluid battles this isn't possible so you end up having to spike the guns and lose the VP for taking them. Also it allows a player who knows he will get reinforcements later and retake an area to agressively use his guns because he can always get them back later. |
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| Author: | pierred [ Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:46 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: artillery question |
The artillery capture rule was a good idea bu poorly implemented for the reasons suggested. As well if the guns happens to be on a road you are moving you Corps thru the guns are re-captured every time a unit enters the hex, makes for a long Corps movement I tell you. It should either be removed or redone. The poorest implementation in otherwise a superb set of optional rules. Don't use it period. The schools should be telling newbies this. |
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| Author: | imiller [ Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:46 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: artillary question |
If you don't like captured artillery blocking defiles, then you can always bring up a battery or two and blow them away. It is a permanent way to ensure they are not recaptured. In my re-enacting days, my unit trained with some reb gunners for a scenario where a piece would be taken, turned, and fired by a scratch crew of infantry. (for safety, one of the "wounded" reb gunners would put on a union jacket during the melee and would become a safety officer until the gune was retaken. I like the artillery capture rule because it discourages "charge of the light brigade" forays by roving cavalry and makes it worthwhile to retake guns. I would not fire captured guns with wagons or minute units - but you can serve a battery of six guns with only 20 men - three per gun to sponge, fetch ammunition and load, but needing extra men to train the guns and run it up after recoil. It wouldn't be fast, but the F class accounts for that. The 25 men/gun includes not only gun crew, but drivers for all the limbers and caissons. Longstreet and his staff served a gun at Antietam. respectfully submitted Ian MIller 4/3/XV AoT |
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| Author: | KWhitehead [ Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: artillary question |
I feel the taking, retaking, and recrewing rules work relatively well for a simple set of simulation rules. I would like to see one thing added which would better reflect taking guns and help fix the loss of VP in the scenario due to guns not immediately disappearing and all points awarded. If the capturing side spikes the guns they would receive half of the normal victory points. This would help solve the problem the optional rule creates for the scenario victory conditions. And, one can claim it sort of reflects the morale effects of losing ones guns. More importantly it would probably be an easy optional rule to add to the HPS game. Even could put the percentage into the parameter file so people could adjust it. |
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| Author: | Cruces [ Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:47 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: artillary question |
I love the 1/2 victory point spiking idea! I also would never fire a gun with an officer, a supply wagon or troops less than 20. MG Elkin AotT |
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