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Thank You for the response. to your points

Mixed Organizational Penalty : I agree it is a Silly rule However IMO it aids the Union in that the side with the smaller units and less of them CSA sometimes is
forced to stack Mixed units so as to Get a Larger force in a hex so it is a way to offer the Union a reward for rout limit off,

Artillery Capture yes it works bad in the game but i tend to be grateful for the ammo and spike the guns F guns are not worth the men it takes to crew them
It is of note that if you spike your own guns and they are on a road it forces the enemy to crew them in order to clear the road
AGREE with the 8 gun rule most battle impose 12 too many IMO and Night Movement AS to night movement/combat i think the game does an ok job i tend to Picket the roads on my flanks if a Player wants to pick up 3 to 500 points of disruption well so be it but i don't mind the house rules either

as to the optional Fire/Melee well my thought was early in the war troops that went into battle for the first time were more un predictable Later in the war as a whole Veterans were around to kind of show Newbies the ropes

Author:	Richard Coyne [ Wed Jun 25, 2025 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:	ROUT LIMIT
ALL in my opinion Rout Limit on ruins this game.. Are we so obsessed with winning that we do not want to recreate history. Again IMO Union players like it on because they can just move up with their big regiments and steamroll.. in almost every battle i read about Rarely do units stand toe to toe for an hour blasting away one side or the other gives way first. I am desperately looking for a group of both union and confederate players who want to play as true to life as possible , Default rules, optional fire/melee off pre Jan 1 1863 on Post Jan 1 63 Do any exist out there or is the "I want to win at all cost Crowd " ,,,, Separate Map to check LOS in an extreme fog, "Scouting " then move never losing a Melee group all that is here. If you agree and want a historically fought battle against an honest opponent and just want to enjoy the game i am your Reb I also do a real time commentary file that i share with my opponent post game and like when they do the same

Author:	Quaama [ Wed Jun 25, 2025 3:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: ROUT LIMIT
I agree that Rout Limiting is an unhistoric Optional Rule. However, in my experience most (players on both sides) will not play with it unchecked. Yes, it can definitely favour the larger side in a battle (usually the Union) although it can also disfavour the side with lower overall quality (also usually the Union). For some time, there was a group of Union players who would require 'concessions' should certain Optional Rules be checked/unchecked or any House Rules introduced in the interests of simulation. This even applied in 'equal force' games. However, I do not think that the Default Rules alone are a perfect solution either. They check two Rules that in my opinion are unrealistic: Mixed Organizational Penalty (I've posted about this on a number of occasions but essentially there is no real historic basis for having such a rule); and Artillery Capture (an historic reality but unfortunately it operates in a weird manner in the games). Also, Default Rules by themselves permit some other unrealistic instances due to the way the games operate so the introduction of two House Rules can assist there. Firstly, Artillery Stacking Limits (a maximum of 8 [although six is better, which is also better suited for Union OoBs]). Also, Night Move Restrictions, it's ludicrous to permit mass flanking moves being made during the night let alone full-blown attacks. The 'night penalties' built into the games are grossly insufficient to discourage such things. I would like further information on one issue you raised: "optional fire/melee off pre Jan 1 1863 on Post Jan 1 63". I appreciate that the date selection would be somewhat arbitrary and I don't want to get into an argument about a specific date but why a cut-off date at all? Sometimes there were extreme casualties, or a lack thereof. I'd contend that they are better 'Off' in general for longer scenarios (it'll all balance out in the end so a bit of uncertainty is good for individual actions), but 'On' for shorter ones or else a game can be ruined by one bad action which would be undesirable from a gaming perspective (even though it can be said to have some historical reality).

Author:	Richard Coyne [ Wed Jun 25, 2025 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: ROUT LIMIT
Thank You for the response. to your points Mixed Organizational Penalty : I agree it is a Silly rule However IMO it aids the Union in that the side with the smaller units and less of them CSA sometimes is forced to stack Mixed units so as to Get a Larger force in a hex so it is a way to offer the Union a reward for rout limit off, Rout Limit off Affects 1. COMMAND / CONTROL= Keep your units under control they will Rout Less and recover Quicker. with it on who cares just spread them out and Blast away 2.Allows Brigades to Attack without a reserve regiment to Plug holes and Back up the Line. 3.By not having reserves to deal with Routs The forces tend to spread out effecting a much larger area than real world battles 4.The Units trade blows Much longer and to a higher level of loss than real world in short this rule sucks 5 . The whole thing about Limit off Quality on goes to a very Fundamental difference in the Union/ Confederates the Union raised New regiments that's why they have large D and E Regiments Where as the South tended to back fill losses or consolidate beat up regiments WHY Give Green troops in 1864 the crutch of rout limit,, IF you play with rout limit on you are missing out on some of the best features of the game you may as well just play RISK. rant over LOL Artillery Capture yes it works bad in the game but i tend to be grateful for the ammo and spike the guns F guns are not worth the men it takes to crew them It is of note that if you spike your own guns and they are on a road it forces the enemy to crew them in order to clear the road AGREE with the 8 gun rule most battle impose 12 too many IMO and Night Movement AS to night movement/combat i think the game does an ok job i tend to Picket the roads on my flanks if a Player wants to pick up 3 to 500 points of disruption well so be it but i don't mind the house rules either as to the optional Fire/Melee well my thought was early in the war troops that went into battle for the first time were more un predictable Later in the war as a whole Veterans were around to kind of show Newbies the ropes In short Learn the nuances of the game you will enjoy it more get more historic results and be a better player verses the "LAZY SUNBATHERS" ( Morrisey) LOL DO Not rely on Optional Rules to cover up the holes in your play Learn the Game!!!!

Author:	Quaama [ Wed Jun 25, 2025 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: ROUT LIMIT
Richard Coyne wrote: Thank You for the response. to your points Mixed Organizational Penalty : I agree it is a Silly rule However IMO it aids the Union in that the side with the smaller units and less of them CSA sometimes is forced to stack Mixed units so as to Get a Larger force in a hex so it is a way to offer the Union a reward for rout limit off, I don't see why there should be any 'reward' for anything. We are either trying to simulate reality or we're not. If Rout Limiting is unhistorical then it's off: if Mixed Organizational Penalty if unhistorical then it's off too. I agree with the points you made on the effects of Rout Limiting. 'The truth shall make you free' to enjoy a better simulation of history. Richard Coyne wrote: Artillery Capture yes it works bad in the game but i tend to be grateful for the ammo and spike the guns F guns are not worth the men it takes to crew them It is of note that if you spike your own guns and they are on a road it forces the enemy to crew them in order to clear the road AGREE with the 8 gun rule most battle impose 12 too many IMO and Night Movement AS to night movement/combat i think the game does an ok job i tend to Picket the roads on my flanks if a Player wants to pick up 3 to 500 points of disruption well so be it but i don't mind the house rules either I have only twice agreed to play a game with it on. [I don't know why I agreed as it made the game rather silly. I think my opponent thought it was somehow in his favour to have it so I relented]. There is an additional oddity with Artillery Capture. When you take their guns they will be automatically crewed (even though no men are deducted from your occupying force). Provided you do not move that unit off that hex you do not have to use any of your men to then crew the guns. You can then move a very small unit or a 'spent' (heavily fatigued) unit onto the hex and once they are there move away the original unit to carry on their good work. The guns remain crewed without you having to expend a single man on crewing them (and it is funny when you can blast the Yankees with their own guns). Should the Union retake the guns they are not automatically crewed and they will need to decrease their force to recrew them [they can't move them though, the horses ran away when you originally took the guns and are gone for the entire battle]. ROFL. Yes, 8 guns is the absolute maximum you can safely fit in a 125 yard stretch, and that assumes ideal conditions. Six is a better limit as it takes into account (impossible to represent) terrain oddities that existed on the field that disallow the ideal maximum. Richard Coyne wrote: as to the optional Fire/Melee well my thought was early in the war troops that went into battle for the first time were more un predictable Later in the war as a whole Veterans were around to kind of show Newbies the ropes I thought that explanation might be your reasoning. However, I do suggest that Optional Fire and Melee be checked (regardless of the battle date) for shorter scenarios. The rules of probability means some odd things can happen when you are using small numbers (a relatively small number of melee/fire actions) and you could upset what could otherwise be an enjoyable game. For larger scenarios (a full day or longer battle) it should not matter as it'll even out in the end and a bit of unpredictability can be a good thing.

Author:	Richard Coyne [ Wed Jun 25, 2025 5:58 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: ROUT LIMIT
Attachment: Screenshot 2025-06-25 184210.png [ 10.29 KiB \| Viewed 85 times ] SO MOST HISTORIC PLAY

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Author:	Blake [ Wed Jun 25, 2025 8:00 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: ROUT LIMIT
Mixed Org Penalty should be on every time. Paul will disagree with his dying breath but that's alright.

Author:	Quaama [ Wed Jun 25, 2025 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: ROUT LIMIT
Blake wrote: Mixed Org Penalty should be on every time. Paul will disagree with his dying breath but that's alright. LOL. There are a few notations on my guidon that list the battles of Mixed Organizational Penalty. We shall never surrender that ground.

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