American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)
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surrounding tactics
http://www.wargame.ch/board/acwgc/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8228		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  D. Groce [ Tue Aug 09, 2005 2:10 pm ]
Post subject:  surrounding tactics
Is it a proper tactic to use limbered artillary to surround a unit for melee or to aid in isolating a unit, I've never done this and don't want to do something the club has deemed inappropriate.

Lt. Col. D. Groce
AoP

David Groce
Lt. Col.
3/2/1 AoP
Author:  KWhitehead [ Tue Aug 09, 2005 4:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
This is one I never thought of and isn't covered by the ACWGC House Rules as far as I can tell. It is also probably a good candidate for inclusion along with wagons and officers.

BG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
III Corps, AoM (CSA)
Author:  banger [ Tue Aug 09, 2005 4:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
I would agree with Gen Whitehead.

Major General Jeff Bangma
Commander, I "Fighting First" Corps
Army of the Potomac
Author:  Ernie Sands [ Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by David Groce</i>
<br />Is it a proper tactic to use limbered artillary to surround a unit for melee or to aid in isolating a unit, I've never done this and don't want to do something the club has deemed inappropriate.

Lt. Col. D. Groce
AoP

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Well, I think that one is a difficult one. Quite often, if I am going to use a ZOC kill (usually on a routed unit)I will put an artillery unit with an infantry unit, as the artillery packs more punch than an infantry unit. On the turn you move it in, you cannot unlimber, but you have to wait for the next turn.

I have moved a solo artillery unit into a ZOC kill zone, if I don't have the infantry available, but I would place it one hex away from the enemy unit, just in case.

Most of the time, I do not melee a ZOC'd unit, but shoot it out of existence and save my units from being "D"ed.

I think I have heard that officers and wagons WILL NOT (I don't know if it that already done or in in the works)exert any ZOC, so it is moot to include them in a "house rule".

I think, however, that you can have any rule you want to have, as long as your opponent agrees before you start the game. I cannot remember setting any house rules in any HPS game in the ACW in any game I have played and seldom have ever played with any house rules, in the ACW.



<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
LtGen, CO XXIII Corps, AoO
Image
ACWGC Cabinet member
</b></font id="gold">
Author:  Rich Walker [ Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
House rules will no longer be necessary. In Shiloh and soon the other games, neither leaders, supply wagons or limbered arty can be used to surround a unit to prevent retreats after a melee.

This engine change was tested and intended for Shiloh, but due to a slight oversight, the change didn't make it on the production CD, but will come out in next months patch for Shiloh.

Rich W.
Author:  Scott Schlitte [ Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
As KW said, I've never agreed with allowing solo limbered guns to go adjacent to the enemy to assist in a surround. Especially with the newer games that have a gazillion 1 & 2-gun sections. Having 3 of these with a total of one battery of limbered guns on three hexsides and one infantry unit on one other doing the melee seems a bit bogus to cause the wipeout of a seven or eight hundred man regt.
But as Ernie pointed out, it's one of those things that should be agreed or not before starting.

MajGen, 2/XIX/AoS
"Beer! It's not just for breakfast anymore!"
Author:  J. Corbin [ Wed Aug 10, 2005 1:36 am ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Walker</i>
<br />House rules will no longer be necessary. In Shiloh and soon the other games, neither leaders, supply wagons or limbered arty can be used to surround a unit to prevent retreats after a melee.

This engine change was tested and intended for Shiloh, but due to a slight oversight, the change didn't make it on the production CD, but will come out in next months patch for Shiloh.

Rich W.


<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

When will this fix be applied to the other ACW games ?


Image
Major General John Corbin
Commanding officer
XXV Corps "The Glory Seekers"
Army of The James
Author:  Thomas Callmeyer [ Wed Aug 10, 2005 4:40 am ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> When will this fix be applied to the other ACW games ?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

My thoughts exactly.

General Thos. Callmeyer
4th Bgd.-1st Div.-XV Corps-AoT
Author:  Ross McDaniel [ Wed Aug 10, 2005 7:56 am ]
Post subject: 
I remember playing as the yank and overrunning Early in BGG 13h with a limbered arty unit. He was reconning east of Gettysburg in advance of his troops. I thought it was "fair" and my opponent did not protest.
However, I am inclined to support those who say that a limbered arty unit should not be deployed to complete an encirclement for melee.

BG Ross McDaniel
2nd Div, III Corps, AoG
Author:  pierred [ Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:45 am ]
Post subject: 
My opinion is why not. Units will not surrender in the game therefore you need to eliminate them, and if you want to prevent from routing away because you are shooting them down you need to surround them.
You cannot breakdown big regiments to do the job so you need to use other units to do the job. A sole leader or a wagon is not correct but an artillery unit should be. They are armed and dangerous. If only because the game engine does not allow you any other options. If someone lets himself be surrounded and there are artillery unit available then so be it.

Waiting 3 or 4 turns, over an hour of time, to shoot them down is not realistic in my opinion and justifies the artillery being used. You have routed units being shot to death recovering etc... The game too many inconsistencies to nickel and dime it to death with house rules.
IMHO


If you let a regiment get surrounded in that fashion then you probably deserve to lose it. Watch your flanks. Now that should be a house rule!

Best Regards,

General Pierre D.
1st Bde,3rd Div,I Corps,
Army of Georgia
CSA

President, ACWGC
Cabinet Member
Author:  Scott Schlitte [ Wed Aug 10, 2005 11:20 am ]
Post subject: 
If the two gun arty section were to get adjacent/behind and unlimber then I agree that he could contribute to the surround. But to have a limbered gun with 8 horses and a handful of enemy with pistols & sabers prevent 800 infantrymen from running away is absurd and no different than a supply wagon similarly armed and no more or less armed and dangerous as you say. If that is the case, then friendly limbered arty should be able to prevent routing units from running through them further to the rear and disrupting everything in their path.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Pierre D</i>
<br />My opinion is why not. Units will not surrender in the game therefore you need to eliminate them, and if you want to prevent from routing away because you are shooting them down you need to surround them.
You cannot breakdown big regiments to do the job so you need to use other units to do the job. A sole leader or a wagon is not correct but an artillery unit should be. They are armed and dangerous. If only because the game engine does not allow you any other options. If someone lets himself be surrounded and there are artillery unit available then so be it.

Waiting 3 or 4 turns, over an hour of time, to shoot them down is not realistic in my opinion and justifies the artillery being used. You have routed units being shot to death recovering etc... The game too many inconsistencies to nickel and dime it to death with house rules.
IMHO


If you let a regiment get surrounded in that fashion then you probably deserve to lose it. Watch your flanks. Now that should be a house rule!

Best Regards,

General Pierre D.
1st Bde,3rd Div,I Corps,
Army of Georgia
CSA

President, ACWGC
Cabinet Member



<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

MajGen, 2/XIX/AoS
"Beer! It's not just for breakfast anymore!"
Author:  Dirk Gross [ Wed Aug 10, 2005 12:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
>Excellant Rich! You have given me the idea to ask John to do the same in the Napoleonic engine for limbered guns. We have the supply wagon, skirmisher and leader overrun rule in effect as you know.<

So a new rule will let the surrounded unit "push" out through leaders, wagons, or limbered artillery?

I agree that using limbered artillery to envelope an enemy is poor gamesmanship. However, there could be a circumstance where an enemy penetrated your line and artillery that was moving up uses it's zoc to complete the encirclement. I wouldn't like the former to happen to me, but everyone has their own limit of gameyness. I'd probably not play them again if this was the first time we played and they continued to do it after I notified them about my discontent. By the way, as long as the club supports the BG series we'll have to keep the rule in effect.



Major General Dirk Gross
XIV Corps/AoC
Author:  Rich Walker [ Wed Aug 10, 2005 5:04 pm ]
Post subject: 
Shiloh will be applied early next month. I want to gather enough to justify a patch.

As for the other games, that will be up to John and the other designers. Doug is due for a patch very soon, but I don't know his schedule. After all, it took over five years to complete. :-)

Rich
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