Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)
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Food for thought
https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10087		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  pgeerkens [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Food for thought
Gentlemen,

I'm new here to the club, so forgive me if I perhaps am out of line, but I'd like to raise a topic that has me perplexed. Having first cut my teeth on TS-BGW, and now enjoying HPS-Eckmuhl, I find aspects of both game engines fascinating, and to be emulating my mind's image of Napoleonic warfare in different but complementary ways. However, the club's current structure subtly rewards the playing of the HPS games at the expense of the Talonsoft/Matrix games.

The reason for this is the same point scale for a single turn using either engine, even though the HPS engine requires only one email exchange per turn while the TS engine requires three.

So my question is, has it been suggested to balance the scales slightly by weighting a turn using the TS engine a bit higher, say at 1.5 or 1.75 OBD points per turn instead of just 1.0? This seems so sensible to me, in terms of fairly weighting the actual time investment of members, as to actually be bordering onto the realm of that exteremely rare commodity, common sense.

There could of course be endless arguments on the appropriate weighting, but is there anyone who would deny a value of at least 1.33, or insist on a value greater than 2.0, or argue that a value near the middle of the range would not be acceptable?

What do you all think of this idea?



Lieutenant Pieter Geerkens
2ème du 22ème, VII Saxon Corps,
L'Armèe du Rhin


"Even in the attack, [I found] the spade is the equal of the rifle." - Erwin Rommel
Author:  Ernie Sands [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 6:28 pm ]
Post subject: 
It complicates matters to require different standards for the scoring of games.

I do not know if there has been mention to give higher scores for the TS/Matrix games, but I do not think it is a good idea.

However, if something was determined to give more value to a TS game, then it should not be in the basic scoring, but to add a point or 2 to the basic score. I do not advocate such changes,just giving some options.

With admin help being at a premium, SIMPLER is always better.

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
General, 1ère Brigade, 19ème Division, VI Corps, L'Armee du Rhin
President, Colonial Campaign Club
</b></font id="gold">
Author:  Bill Peters [ Sat Nov 29, 2008 7:10 pm ]
Post subject: 
And I am currently playing HPS Campaign Jena using the Manual Defense Fire option. So we play 6 files per turn.

I enjoy the format. But I dont want extra points. Its just a choice I made.

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)
Author:  Antony Barlow [ Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:40 am ]
Post subject: 
Yes there are more file exchanges per turn, but you have less to do each time you receive a file. For instance, very little effort is required for fire phases and they can be completed very quickly. In terms of gameplay one whole game turn in HPS single phase requires a similar effort to one whole game turn in Talonsoft, or HPS played in phases. The only real difference is the extra effort in sending more files. But we don't really want to award extra points just for sending files do we? Just my opinion.

<center>[url="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.r.barlow/nwc/nwc_personal_record.htm"]Brigadier General Antony Barlow[/url]
~ [url="http://www.geocities.com/anglo_allied_army_stats/Anglo_Allied_Army_Cavalry_Corps.htm"]2nd British (Union) Brigade, Anglo-Allied Cavalry Corps[/url] ~
~ [url="http://www.geocities.com/militaireacademie/dragoons.html"]4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards[/url] ~
Image</center>
Author:  clifton seeney [ Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:51 am ]
Post subject: 
Monsieur IMHO the old games are hard to install for new people (thoses who never played these types of games which means lost of players) Next if you are an old gamer you know just how to beat any one with the old games (ESP NIR) panzer style games were born on these games so you lose the History style players, that is why that old Rockville Md company is out.They moved from Charles st in Baltimore MD I use to read their meters for BGE and Advon Hill on Harford Rd. Now if you want simple and easy HP is the way to go and (I see you are not new to play) then the big 500+ games are the way to advance to General without tacking a year.Win some of them then you have gamed !

Col de Art 6/3 II Corps AN Marbot CS
Author:  Andy Moss [ Mon Dec 01, 2008 11:48 pm ]
Post subject: 
Antony is correct in my opinion. HPS requires a lot of extra thought and work per turn. So it balances out. It really boils down to which game engine you prefer. If you like BG games you can set up HPS to play more or less the same way.

Generaal
2de Brigade
2de Nederlandsche Div
I Corps
Anglo Allied Army
Author:  D.S. Walter [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 4:16 am ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Antony Barlow</i>
But we don't really want to award extra points just for sending files do we?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Nah, really not. There's a lot of things that would need consideration before that. Like how come that one turn of a huge Eckmuhl in one battle campaign scenario with over 100,000 men per side counts just the same as one turn of "getting started"? I am not advocating to change that, either. Just pointing out that the present, simple (and that's good) system is "unfair" in many ways, if you start to think about it.

<center>
[url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_walter/NWC/2nd_Dragoons.htm"]Image[/url]
Maj. Gen. D.S. "Green Horse" Walter
~ 2nd Dragoons (Royal Scots Greys) ~
2nd (Union) Brigade, Anglo-Allied Cavalry Corps
----------
~ 3rd (Prince of Wales's) Dragoon Guards ~
[url="http://www.geocities.com/militaireacademie/"]Image[/url]
</center>
Author:  Andy Moss [ Tue Dec 02, 2008 5:23 am ]
Post subject: 
<i></i>Like how come that one turn of a huge Eckmuhl in one battle campaign scenario with over 100,000 men per side counts just the same as one turn of "getting started"? <i></i>

Aha....that of course is another can of worms.[;)]

Then there are promotion issues between the various armies. Or the "Why should maneuvers be worth less than fights?" Or the issue that one gigantic Jena Campaign scores 2 points same as a Getting Started - provided you win that is.

Generaal
2de Brigade
2de Nederlandsche Div
I Corps
Anglo Allied Army
Author:  pgeerkens [ Wed Dec 03, 2008 10:52 am ]
Post subject: 
All very sound arguments, gentlemen, I cannot argue with any. Thank you for your comments.

Lieutenant Pieter Geerkens
2ème du 22ème, VII Saxon Corps,
L'Armèe du Rhin


"Even in the attack, [I found] the spade is the equal of the rifle." - Erwin Rommel
Author:  Ernie Sands [ Wed Dec 03, 2008 6:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
Maneuvers count less than battles to encourage members to play another army and nor within their own.

The core of the club (and our sister clubs) is the competition between the sides and the (sometimes the role playing) that starts. Aquite often, the banter in within the emails of the opponents and sometimes it gets into this forum.

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
General, 1ère Brigade, 19ème Division, VI Corps, L'Armee du Rhin
President, Colonial Campaign Club
</b></font id="gold">
Author:  Neville Worland [ Thu Dec 04, 2008 1:45 am ]
Post subject: 
Does it matter? I have been in this club for about five years now and have thoroughly enjoyed the competition and the companionship of its members. But as to the actual results, and the ranking it leads to, I don't really care. I stopped registering games or recording results years ago. Following on from that, I tend to choose large scenarios because I like the grand tactics involved. I don't mind at all that these ones might get less points per hour spent, as the point of the game (and the club) is to enjoy the game.

Lt Colonel Neville Worland
Chef d'Etat-Major
Ier Corps de Réserve de Cavalerie
Army du Nord
Author:  Andy Moss [ Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:51 am ]
Post subject: 
<i></i>Does it matter?<i></i>

No

Generaal
2de Brigade
2de Nederlandsche Div
I Corps
Anglo Allied Army
Author:  D.S. Walter [ Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:18 am ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by andy Moss</i>
<br /><i></i>Does it matter?<i></i>

No
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I suppose it depends on what "matter" means. Compared to life and death, family values and my real life income and expenses, do club points matter? No.

But as a token of the appreciation of a small community for contributions to the clubs to which I have devoted a signicicant part of my spare time, as a visible trace of the many years spent in this virtual world, do club points (and VPs and decorations and a nice regiment with a cool uniform and history and such things) matter? Yes, indeed, they do. [:)]

<center>
[url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_walter/NWC/2nd_Dragoons.htm"]Image[/url]
Maj. Gen. D.S. "Green Horse" Walter
~ 2nd Dragoons (Royal Scots Greys) ~
2nd (Union) Brigade, Anglo-Allied Cavalry Corps
----------
~ 3rd (Prince of Wales's) Dragoon Guards ~
[url="http://www.geocities.com/militaireacademie/"]Image[/url]
</center>
Author:  Colin Knox [ Thu Dec 04, 2008 7:48 am ]
Post subject: 
Well as a French Cavalry officer I most definitely feel it matters. My lovely Gardes d'Honneur uniform has been hard earned and my titles and over rated status something my noble heritage deserves.

Helga a round here for all the cavalry officers. General Walter please take that large Busby off its making my shako look insignificant.

[:D]

Salute!


General de Brigade Knox
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur (the regaled pheasants)
La Jeune Garde
CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

Image
Author:  Antony Barlow [ Thu Dec 04, 2008 10:31 am ]
Post subject: 
I agree with General Walter. I would expect nothing less from a true and loyal officer of the <b><font color="red">Union Brigade</font id="red"></b>! Drinks all round I say![8D]

<center>[url="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.r.barlow/nwc/nwc_personal_record.htm"]Brigadier General Antony Barlow[/url]
~ [url="http://www.geocities.com/anglo_allied_army_stats/Anglo_Allied_Army_Cavalry_Corps.htm"]2nd British (Union) Brigade, Anglo-Allied Cavalry Corps[/url] ~
~ [url="http://www.geocities.com/militaireacademie/dragoons.html"]4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards[/url] ~
Image</center>
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