Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)
https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/

March Rates - Something to Consider
https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10303		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Bill Peters [ Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:16 am ]
Post subject:  March Rates - Something to Consider
I have been doing some studying on the march rates of the various armies. The Austrians were notoriously slow so we can use them as the low end. The French and British had better march rates than the rest so we can use them as the high end.

Given that the average march rate is around 15 miles that comes out to be about 24 kilometers or 240 hexes in our game scale.

Add in that 30-35 miles was quite possible. The Light Division of the British army and Davout's corps both had long arduous marches during the wars.

Reference:

http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/his ... march2.asc

30 miles converts to 48 kilomters - or 480 hexes.

Now some players have been commenting that the march rates in the series is a bit slow. I recently did a study of the series and here is what I discovered:

(I average the distances for each format after the rates based on an 8 hour day of marching)
Jena 10 min format - you can move on pikes than on roads:
Pikes:
Cavalry - 60 hexes/hour
Infantry/Artillery/Wagons - 48 hexes/hour (4.8 km)
Army could move 38.4 km using this scale - that is 24 miles.

Roads:
Cavalry - 42 hexes/hour
Infantry/Artillery/Wagons - 30 hexes/hour
Army could move 18 km using this scale - that is 11 miles.

---------

Waterloo format:
(pike or road)
Cavalry - 56 hexes/hour
Infantry/Artillery/Wagons - 40 hexes/hour
Army could move 32 km using this scale - that is 19.8 miles.

---------

Now most of us know that in the large scenarios there is a potential to march all day. Figuring that most of the days run from 7am to 7pm for Jena that is 72 turns - if all they marched on were pike hexes (possible on the large map for Sachen-Anhalt) then they would march the astounding distance of 36 hours.

For Waterloo the rate drops somewhat to about 30 miles.

So what to do in the games about this? Do Rich and I change the rate of movement on pikes/roads? Can there be a way to play this in the games?

Here is what I suggest: I would use some form of point to point system for your marches on the long maps. I would cut them up into 4 hour periods. Figure where a corps could march in 4 hours and note it on a piece of paper or spreadsheet, text file, etc. Then head for that location. If you have an action going on somewhere near then factor in a detour. But if the action is happening half of the map away just continue to march the unit to the orders location. Then at the next four hour period you have a choice:

1. Go for historical accuracy and rest the unit.

OR

2. Continue moving.

Frankly I like the idea of an hour rest period.

Then move another four hours worth of movement. Rest another hour or just call it a day.

You would have moved the historical day's march using either series game model.

Now if you order a unit to force march - add in another 4 hour march period into the evening hours. Though the turns become either one hour or 30 mins. you should be able to get in an additional 20 (Waterloo) or 24 turns (Jena) before the game goes past midnight.

But if you opt for historical accuracy dont use the pike movement rate in Jena or pike/road in Waterloo more than 8 hours worth of movement and you will arrive at a day's march as per the historical average.



Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)
Author:  Kosyanenko [ Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:47 am ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The French and British had better march rates than the rest so we can use them as the high end.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I can' understand is it ignorance or arrogance? British army being faster on average than Russian?! Or French being faster?

It will take some time to bring in the figures but the average speed of Souvorov's marches was higher. 30+ kilometers a day was a norm and all these records on the page are well beaten. Not only with examples of Russian armies and not only during the Napoleonic wars. Poor source, Bill[V]

<center>Image</center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>
Author:  Bill Peters [ Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:46 am ]
Post subject: 
Duffy: Eagles Over the Alps page 36:

"Suvorov described his IDEAL march to the Austrian lieutant-general Bellegarde."

Then the text goes on to describe it:

first stage 3am - march 8 km - rest for an hour

second stage - march 8 km - eat and rest throughout the heat of the day

third stage - march 8 km - rest for an hour

fourth stage - march 8 km - rest for the night

Total: 32 km or 19.8 miles.

Note: this was his IDEAL march pace. I dont see 22-28 miles here which is something that both the French and British could and did do on many occaisions - just not on the norm.

Take out one of those stages and you have 24 km or 14.9 miles.

And this on a normal day.

Given that in 1799, 1805 and in 1813 the Russians marched with the Prussians and Austrians you certainly must admit that Suvarov's ideal march rate couldn't have been the norm.

I would say that during any war where Russia fought with Austria or Prussia in a mixed army atmosphere that they never exceeded 15 miles in a day and 12-14 was probably closer to the distance they would march.

What references can you cite for us that would back up an average Russian march to exceed that of the British or French? I do know that they made some horrific marches such as in 1805 (Kutusov marching to the aid of Mack) but was this normal practice?

State what you think is the average march rate of the Russian army if you like.

Frankly the thread is about the concept that the game is trying to model history - not who could march the furthest. My citing of the French and British may upset some of the Germans here too who could probably cite the Prussian army having had march for 15 miles a day during 1813 perhaps.

If anyone has a better average for march distance for the armies then post it.

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)
Author:  Michael Ellwood [ Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:57 am ]
Post subject: 
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko

I think that throughout the period (and its just this period we are talking about) the French and British were acknowledged as being able to march faster and further consistantly better than other nations armies.
Now specific examples of great feats from all nations I'm sure can be found however we are going for the standard and accepted performances here. Its not a slight on other nations, its just an acknowledged fact that this was the case.
I for one would like to see national characteristics more prevelent in the series.

I think the Russians should be given a higher fatigue level.
The British should all be rated B or A class and be able to charge after firing.
The French (within comd radius) be able to rally and re-order a lot easier than other nations.
The Prussian cost for formation changes (prior to the reforms) be increased.
The Austrian march rate be reduced.

I think the more discussion and the more complexity is actually good for the series and advancing 'the system'.The balance and the engine capacity are the main hurdles. When you talk interpretations of the armies abilities it can be very emotive so you have to go for the accepted norm to be on the safe side.

Just my 2c worth. Keep up the chnages Bill, Rich and Co [:)]

Col Mike Ellwood
Konig Regt
1 Bde, 22 Div
VII Saxon Corps, ADR
Author:  Colin Knox [ Mon Apr 06, 2009 2:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
A great deal of the true marching rates of the armies of the Napoleonic wars came down to the alcohol they drank

For the Russians the supply of vodka was inconsistent and this caused them to march superbly sometimes and others poorly [:(!]

For the Britz the gin was not always pink and therefore did not always find them in their prime. [:I]

As for the Prussians the snapps tended to disagree with all those sausages and saukraut so it slowed them as opposed to speeding them up.[:0]

The Austrians did not drink at all and as a consequence they were the slowest marchers but remained the best on ski's.

But for we french our reserve brandy and fine wine always ensured a strong march rate. Davout's famous march to the battle of Austerlitz evidently involved a report of a large wine cellar at Tellnitz being available for plunder.[:p]

[:)]

Sorry Bill not much use I know but I thought some levity may assist.

General de Brigade Knox
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur (the regaled pheasants)
La Jeune Garde
CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

Image
Author:  Bill Peters [ Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
Colin you stinker! [:D]

Helga, a lemonade please! [:p]

Ah no, no additives please. Happened to me once when I was young and I am still marching! [;)]

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)
Author:  Colin Knox [ Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
Helga Red Bull for Bill please.
Now for a serious opinion[B)]that’s not a black eye it’s a patch by the way.

The Napoleonic wars were quite simply defined by the feet of the French soldier. The whole reason Napoleon was so successful was because the French army was more mobile than any other force of the whole period. 1812 was of course the exception due to the vast supply train and all the vodka left behind by the retreating Russians. Which did not agree with our onions, garlic and fried potato.

Consider the campaigns of 1814 and even indeed 1813 and 1815 and the French march and counter march against a numerically superior opponent was the only reason that they were never defeated. Ooops I mean not defeated immediately [:D] ok defeated they were but never vanquished. Hmmm ok vanquished in the end but never had the spirit truly destroyed.

In summary I put my case that the glorious legions of France were the fastest marchers. As for the shopkeepers marching around a sideshow in Spain I say that was well a sideshow.

Vive l'Empereur!



General de Brigade Knox
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur (the regaled pheasants)
La Jeune Garde
CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

Image
Author:  Kosyanenko [ Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
Only my opinion on movements rates in HPS engines here. The question on relative marching speed in a separate thread.

I believe that army should be given ability to march 25-30 km per day using only roads. Using pikes the numbers should be a bit higher. About 35 km per day. Maybe a bit more. The speed of march along the pike in Jena seems reasonable. The movements on the roads is really too slow. Same in CE and CW. In Waterloo the movement along the roads is a bit too rapid while along the pike is a bit slower than it should be.

Unless we have food issues and marching fatigue included we will be unable to reconstruct the real marching speed other than with house rules. For example like the one stated.

<center>Image</center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
https://www.phpbb.com/