Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC) :: View topic - Death of Wellington or Napoleon !

Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC) https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/

Death of Wellington or Napoleon ! https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10422	Page 1 of 2

Author:	clifton seeney [ Tue Jul 14, 2009 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:	Death of Wellington or Napoleon !
Should the game in 100 days go on if the two leaders are killed? Should it have stop once the leader was killed? And why does this not affect the Army on a whole, unlike a Corps commander or a Div commanderâ€™s death! General de Brig Kliff Marbot II Corps Art Res Division .Commander Marechal de Camp AN

Author:	Michael Ellwood [ Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:
Good question. My view would be if Napoleon was killed yes the whole campaign would cease. The Marshals would have surely not have been unable to sieze control of the political landscape. I cannot see Davout or Ney taking anything but temporary control and both would have been keen for peace...Ney maybe hot footing it for America or maybe New Zealand [:D]. If Wellington was killed on the 18th I believe Waterloo would have had the same outcome. It was Napoleon's loss more than Wellington's victory. Bluchers arrival would have been unchanged. Gniesneau I believe chose Wavre without Blucher's input and I think Gniesnau really would have arrived, later and in less numbers but still effective. Napoleon didn't have the troops left! However thats not a given. If Wellington had been killed prior to the 18th I think all sorts of what ifs are opened up!! Both military with the immediate campaign, moral on both the Anglo-Duch army, public and politics in Britian and on the allied alliance/position as a whole in Europe subsequently. The allies I believe would have continued even without Wellington in the short term as they were to far committed. It would have been a protracted 1814 all over again, with the outcome even less assured for them than 1814! Had Napoleon won at Waterloo with or without Wellington/Blucher's death I think a peace would have been concluded soon after or after L'Emperor's next major victory against the Russians/Austrians! My humble opinion. Wellington killed at Quatra Bra on the 16th? What a great what if!! Col Mike Ellwood Konig Regt 1 Bde, 22 Div VII Saxon Corps, ADR

Author:	Tony Malone [ Tue Jul 14, 2009 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:
I think if Davout had been at Waterloo and Napoleon was killed he would have been able to handle the army, in fact I believe he would be able to defeat Wellington. Now Davout in Paris after Napoleon's defeat and abdication was able to get some concessions out of Wellington and the Allies, with the threat of using the French Army. Davout had a great reputation and they remembered how he held out in Hamburg after Napoleon's first abdication. MarÃ©chal Tony R.Malone, Comte d'Auvergne et Duc de Vauchamps: Division d'Infanterie de la Moyenne Garde; "The Guard may die, But it never surrenders".

Author:	clifton seeney [ Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:
Monsieur as far as this 100 days contest is concern? General de Brig Kliff Marbot II Corps Art Res Division .Commander Marechal de Camp AN

Author:	clifton seeney [ Tue Jul 14, 2009 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:
Monsieur as far as this 100 days contest is concern? General de Brig Kliff Marbot II Corps Art Res Division .Commander Marechal de Camp AN

Author:	Bill Peters [ Wed Jul 15, 2009 9:18 am ]
Post subject:
I would disagree with you Tony. I think that Napoleon's personality is what caused the campaign to happen anyway and no matter how well Davout was (and I am a big fan of his) he could not have stopped the men from departing from the ranks. I think that the player's should decide this prior to the game. I have seen players use Napoleon in a cavalry charge and I captured him on turn 12 or sooner! Same thing has happened with Wellington. Sometimes people forget where he is and just attach a "leader" to a charge or formation and advance him. I also see players moving large stacks of leaders forward not realizing that they are doing this. I would say that if the players agreed to call the game before they start play that that is very historical. Much more for Napoleon though than Wellington. One note: while some may think that "hunting Napoleon" is wrong anyone that doesn't surround him with adequate troops is asking for some cav squadron to gather him in as a trophy. So while I dont agree with the entire Allied army marching to take one leader to win you also could make a claim for a Darwin award for anyone that leaves him unprotected too! [:p] Colonel Bill Peters Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20Ã¨me lÃ©gÃ¨re Brigade de Cavalerie, 13Ã¨me Hussar Regiment HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

Author:	Jim Pfleck [ Sat Jul 18, 2009 10:44 am ]
Post subject:
I agree with Bill on this. Sure, the French military was disgruntled under the restoration with how they were treated, and much of France was unhappy with the return of the Bourbons, but the focal point of it all was Nappy. He gave it meaning and without him there was nothing for them to fight for. No symbol, vision of what what come next. Davout and Soult, despite their talents, lacked the political currency to win or really even fight a war, even if Napoleon had been killed in a skirmish the day before Ligny. The Brits without Wellington would be interesting. I am not sure who had the battlefield presence (and who would have succeeded him). It was not enough to be competent, one had to have the gaul to believe Nappy could be beaten. I would guess they would have executed an orderly withdrawal and been out of the campaign for a while, leading to the Prussians a falling back or being smashed. Then, the big question would be what would happen when the Austrians and Russians showed up. Nappy would certainly have his best organized and equiped army in years, but I do not think the allies would let him stay in power without suffering total defeat... Feldmarschall Jim 'Prinz' Pfluecke Commander, Austrian Cavalry Reserve 3 Graf O'Reilly Chevauxleger Rgt Hahn Grenadier Bn

Author:	SLudwig [ Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:17 pm ]
Post subject:
Blucher trumps them all!! [:p][:D] Sorry, just had to. <center>-------------------------------------------------------- General der Infanterie Scott Kronprinz "VorwÃ¤rts" Ludwig von PreuÃŸen (Old Windy) (Windbagfrankfurter) (The Mad Prussian) (Herr WindbagenfÃ¼hrer) Generalquartiermeister der PreuÃŸischen Armee Kommandeur Garde-Grenadier-Korps KÃ¶niglich PreuÃŸische Armee am Niederrhein Webmaster & Club Cabinet - Public Relations Officer VorwÃ¤rts Meine Kinder, VorwÃ¤rts!! [url="http://www.prussianarmy.com/"]KÃ¶nigliche PreuÃŸische Armee[/url] [url="http://www.networkforgood.org"]Network for Good[/url] [url="http://napoleonicwargaming.com"]Napoleonic Wargaming - INWC[/url]</center>

Author:	clifton seeney [ Sun Jul 19, 2009 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:
So what you saying if you kill the Prussi Commander that it would have really been over even though he was ten hours away? General de Brig Kliff Marbot II Corps Art Res Division .Commander Marechal de Camp AN

Author:	Michael Ellwood [ Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:
Clif, No, if Blucher was killed or captured , which he nearly was, I think the Prussians would have still gone to the aid of the Anglo-Dutch and therefore his removal is the least problamatic. If Napoleon is removed then yes the campaign should end in a Allied victory. If Wellington is removed at Waterloo I think the fight should still continue. If however he is killed before the 18th then its really diffcult to predict the future. Col Mike Ellwood Konig Regt 1 Bde, 22 Div VII Saxon Corps, ADR

Author:	clifton seeney [ Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:00 pm ]
Post subject:
Monsieur the broad called it a draw mesi! General de Brig Kliff Marbot II Corps Art Res Division .Commander Marechal de Camp AN

Author:	Jim Pfleck [ Thu Jul 23, 2009 3:27 am ]
Post subject:
Mike, I am not so sure about Blucher. Who would have taken command at that point? Gneisau (sp, I know, I have no idea how to spell his name)? Would he have acted so agressively? Obviously, if the troops were in MArch and Blucher was killed at Plancenoit, then the results would have been as with history IMHO. Feldmarschall Jim 'Prinz' Pfluecke Commander, Austrian Cavalry Reserve 3 Graf O'Reilly Chevauxleger Rgt Hahn Grenadier Bn

Author:	Michael Ellwood [ Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:
Hi Jim, Gniesneau had already decided on Wavre as the rally point and though history indicates he was keen to then continue the retreat to Liege, even without Blucher's presence on the 16th I believe he would have still marched to the sound of the guns, albiet without the same preparedness and drive. The battle would have had the same result, later and not so decisive however. I believe the Prussians were committed to supporting the Anglo-Dutch even though Gniesneau was not keen, the quartermaster General Grolmann was said to be for it. I think honour and the operational plan would have meant had he not Gniesneau would have been a coward, which he certainly was not. To simulate this it would be easy to delay the Prussian arrival by half an hour or an hour and restrict the force to just Bulow's and maybe Pirch's Corps. However no Blucher on the 17/18 and no Wellington on the 17/18th? Even Napoleon's worst day would have been saved [:D] Col Mike Ellwood Konig Regt 1 Bde, 22 Div VII Saxon Corps, ADR

Author:	SLudwig [ Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:
Gneisenau made the fateful decision. After Ligny when Blucher was missing in the rout, Gneisenau took it upon himself, even though he distrusted the British & Wellington and moved the Armee towards the Brits instead of away, as was agreed that either force would come to the aid of the other if attacked. It was this decision alone that setup the fateful next day events. That is what I celebrate in my Promise Not Forgotten posts....the Promise the Prussians made to Wellington and they fulfilled it. But no one had the gusto and bravado the way Blucher did to win that battle & the war. Ever since 1806 it was his sole mission to drive the lil' Corporal out of power.....and he did, twice. [:D] <center>-------------------------------------------------------- General der Infanterie Scott Kronprinz "VorwÃ¤rts" Ludwig von PreuÃŸen (Old Windy) (Windbagfrankfurter) (The Mad Prussian) (Herr WindbagenfÃ¼hrer) Generalquartiermeister der PreuÃŸischen Armee Kommandeur Garde-Grenadier-Korps KÃ¶niglich PreuÃŸische Armee am Niederrhein Webmaster & Club Cabinet - Public Relations Officer VorwÃ¤rts Meine Kinder, VorwÃ¤rts!! [url="http://www.prussianarmy.com/"]KÃ¶nigliche PreuÃŸische Armee[/url] [url="http://www.networkforgood.org"]Network for Good[/url] [url="http://napoleonicwargaming.com"]Napoleonic Wargaming - INWC[/url]</center>

Author:	Michael Ellwood [ Wed Jul 29, 2009 5:42 pm ]
Post subject:
General der Infanterie Scott Kronprinz "VorwÃ¤rts" Ludwig von PreuÃŸen No he didn't![:D] A coalition of monarchist worried about their own fat asses drove thousands of serfs to do their dirty work for them! Blucher was just another of the tools that they used. [;)] Europe would not have plunged into the 20th century's horrors had the 'Code Napoleon' been europe wide![B)] Freemen still celebrate L'Emperor! [:D] Col Mike Ellwood Konig Regt 1 Bde, 22 Div VII Saxon Corps, ADR

Page 1 of 2	All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group https://www.phpbb.com/