Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)
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Hand to hand fighting
https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10435		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  MarcoRietveld [ Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:15 am ]
Post subject:  Hand to hand fighting
You always see generals like Alexander and Ceasar fighting in the fronline and doing hand to hand combat along their soldiers in movies and documentaries. It seems to me that this is a bit unlikely. It would be very risky and a simple footsoldier could kill a important leader. More likely would be that in some cases the leaders might coordinate an attack or defense near the fronline. Is this only Hollywood or did this happen in reality ?

Generaal-majoor Marco Rietveld
2e Divisie Commander
I Corps
Allied/Dutch Army
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Author:  Sir Muddy [ Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:23 am ]
Post subject: 
Where's the front line? After the Napoleonic era, I would argue that the front line ceased to exist. Perhaps the front half of the American Civil War had battle fronts, but after trench warfare set it. There was no need for a leader to be in front.

Then armies became so large that the fighting occurred on many fronts. So, where is the front line?

Who was the last army commander killed in action?

Wolfe at Quebec in the French and Indian War?

FM Sir 'Muddy' Jones, KG
2nd Life Guards, Household Cavalry
Author:  Bill Peters [ Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:36 am ]
Post subject: 
Actually very true for Alexander who fought with his cavalry as a wing commander and often had to fight the enemy.

Caesar is another matter. The Roman generals were more managers of troops than in the trench warriors. But Caesar did have to fight in Gaul on occasion. Less so during the Civil Wars I think.

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)
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Author:  Colin Knox [ Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:45 am ]
Post subject: 
Yes Alexander was a bit of a nutter always in the thick of the action. Often leading his companion cavalry to victory.

Comparisons in the Napoleonic area are quite numerous including some signifigant deaths. Such as Ney at Waterloo (lost 4 horses), Bagration at Borodino, Lannes at Aspern Essling, Picton at Waterloo, Murat at Eylau etc. Napoleon himself lead forces forward in earlier years. He tried to lead the guard forward at Waterloo but his entourage restrained him.

In the Napoleonic wars personal bravery got you promoted in N's army at least. So many of the Marechal's would lead from the front. I think on the whole you would say it was only on desperate occassions though not a routine thing.




General de Brigade Knox
Baron de l'Empire

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2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur (the regaled pheasants)
La Jeune Garde

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CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm
Author:  D.S. Walter [ Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:03 am ]
Post subject: 
As a matter of fact it was very important for generals of antiquity to lead by example and support their claim to leadership by actually fighting. If you take Alexander, he hardly commanded at all, he only led. Caesar of course commanded, but he too had to fight among his men to be accepted as their leader.

The concept really survived into the 19th century, at least in some armies. The Grande Armée comes to mind, but Rebel generals of the Civil War were also found in the frontline, up to and including corps commanders as a rule, and army commanders as an exception (AS Johnston at Shiloh).

<center>
[url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_walter/NWC/2nd_Dragoons.htm"]Image[/url]
Maj. Gen. D.S. "Green Horse" Walter
~ 2nd Dragoons (Royal Scots Greys) ~
2nd (Union) Brigade, Anglo-Allied Cavalry Corps
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~ 3rd (Prince of Wales's) Dragoon Guards ~
[url="http://www.geocities.com/militaireacademie/"]Image[/url]
</center>
Author:  MarcoRietveld [ Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:34 am ]
Post subject: 
Its hard to believe that those leaders involved in actual fighting were not killed or at least injured more often. I sometimes suspect that its has more to do with propaganda to show how brave a leader was by reporting that he actually killed some of his opponents. There is a difference in being near the line where the action takes place and being involved in hand to hand combat.

Generaal-majoor Marco Rietveld
2e Divisie Commander
I Corps
Allied/Dutch Army
Image
Author:  Sir Muddy [ Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
What army or general in the civil war actually fought and killed opponents in battle?

I can think that maybe the cavalry generals did fight... but what infantry commanders? I can recall Longstreet direct artillery at Antietam, Jackson raised a sword at Cedar Mtn. (?) but only to rally troops. He didn't personally kill anyone.

FM Sir 'Muddy' Jones, KG
2nd Life Guards, Household Cavalry
Author:  Ernie Sands [ Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
Just look at Pickets Charge! The movies portray it well.

Armistead (for one) lead from as close to the front as he could.

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
General, 1ère Brigade, 19ème Division, VI Corps, L'Armee du Rhin
President, Colonial Campaign Club
</b></font id="gold">
Author:  Ivan A.P. [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:09 am ]
Post subject: 
It is said Alexander could die in the battle of Granicus River. Fortunately, Cleitus the Black saved him...

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<b><font color="red">Major</font id="red"> Iván <font color="red">'Freiherr'</font id="red"> Alpuente<hr noshade size="1">
Chief<font color="red"> of</font id="red"> Staff<hr noshade size="1">
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***** <font color="red">II</font id="red"> Armee <font color="red">Korps</font id="red"> *****
<font color="red">Kaiserliche</font id="red"> Armee von <font color="red">Österreich</font id="red"></b>

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Author:  Sir Muddy [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Ernie Sands</i>
<br />Just look at Pickets Charge! The movies portray it well.

Armistead (for one) lead from as close to the front as he could.

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
General, 1ère Brigade, 19ème Division, VI Corps, L'Armee du Rhin
President, Colonial Campaign Club
</b></font id="gold">

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

But those guys were brigade commanders... what army commanders fought from the front and actually engaged in melee? Or shot someone?

FM Sir 'Muddy' Jones, KG
2nd Life Guards, Household Cavalry
Author:  Bill Peters [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:56 pm ]
Post subject: 
George Patton actually put a bullet in a plane.

I saw it in Patton so it has to be so! [:p]

How about the US paras in Normandy where generals, colonels and so on fought as infantrymen?

I know that Gen. Gavin dispatched a few Germans during his tenure on the front.

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)
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Author:  Al Amos [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:07 pm ]
Post subject: 
Didn't Reynolds die at G-burg from a sniper while leading the Iron Brigade forward?

Didn't Nap lead a charge across the Lodi bridge?

Didn't Blucher nearly die while be overrun by French cavalry after leading a cavalry charge of his own?

Didn't Nap come within pistol range of Cossacks while on a personal reconnaisence during the 1812 campaign?

Didn't a Prussian Prince die during a cavalry action at the beginning of the 1806 campaign?

Didn't Blucher flee for his life out the back of a house during 1814?

Didn't Washington ride between the battle lines at the battle of Princeton, recieved a full volley from the English and returned to his lines unharmed?

Didn't T. Boone Pickens ride an A-bomb ...

Okay one too many 'didn'ts'. [:o)]

al
Author:  Colin Knox [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:22 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hey Al I thought it was Slim Pickens who road the Bomb in Dr Strangelove? [:D]

And then Steve Buscemi in Armageddon. 'it's time to embrace the doom'

By the way your point was well made their are quite a lot more examples I could add.





General de Brigade Knox
Baron de l'Empire

Image

2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur (the regaled pheasants)
La Jeune Garde

Image

CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm
Author:  Al Amos [ Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:08 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hey Al I thought it was Slim Pickens who road the Bomb in Dr Strangelove? [:D]

Yeah, you're right. T. Boone supports the OSU Cowboys, and Sooner fans want to strap him to an A-bomb. [:p]

al
Author:  D.S. Walter [ Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:16 am ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Sir Muddy</i>
<br />What army or general in the civil war actually fought and killed opponents in battle?

I can think that maybe the cavalry generals did fight... but what infantry commanders? I can recall Longstreet direct artillery at Antietam, Jackson raised a sword at Cedar Mtn. (?) but only to rally troops. He didn't personally kill anyone.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

No they didn't KILL. But corps commanders in the ACW were still close enough to the frontlines to GET killed or wounded by rifle or artillery fire. Reynolds (k), Sedgwick (k), Jackson (k), Hancock (w), just off the cuff, I am quite sure there's plenty more. Even army commanders occasionally: as I said, ASJ killed at Shiloh; Lyon fell in charge of what was at least officially styled an army; wasn't Hood in charge of an army when he was wounded the second time?

The point is that these guys still were at the point of immediate danger. Hand-to-hand fighting was not the predominant style of killing and getting killed in the ACW as it was in ancient times. People got killed by bullets, and these guys still were where that happened. Brigade commanders always, division commanders usually, corps commanders often, and sometimes even army commanders.

And you don't find that the same way in other wars. In the Wars of German unification, corps commanders were quite safe. In WW1 I suppose you'd be hard pressed to find a division commander going in harm's way, maybe except in the opening campaigns. Samsonow committed suicide at Tannenberg (which doesn't really count), but other than that ...?

<center>
[url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_walter/NWC/2nd_Dragoons.htm"]Image[/url]
Maj. Gen. D.S. "Green Horse" Walter
~ 2nd Dragoons (Royal Scots Greys) ~
2nd (Union) Brigade, Anglo-Allied Cavalry Corps
----------
~ 3rd (Prince of Wales's) Dragoon Guards ~
[url="http://www.geocities.com/militaireacademie/"]Image[/url]
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