Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC) :: View topic - Exit hexes Waterloo

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Exit hexes Waterloo https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10751	Page 1 of 1

Author:	MarcoRietveld [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:39 am ]
Post subject:	Exit hexes Waterloo
I am playing a historical Waterloo and I noticed that there are French but no Allied exit hexes. I can imaging that if the French would have gone to Brussels it would have been a catastrophe for the Allies. On the other hand if the Allies would have gone to Paris before the French could have retreated it would have been as bad for the French. I can't understand why there are no Allied exit hexes was this perhaps to make the game more balanced ? Generaal-majoor Marco Rietveld I Corps Allied/Dutch Army

Author:	D.S. Walter [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:02 am ]
Post subject:
First shot: it's 10 miles from Waterloo to Brussels but about 130 miles (as the crow flies) from Waterloo to Paris. [;)] Second shot: there is no way L'ArmÃ©e du Nord, just over 100,000 strong, could have decisively defeated the combined Allied armies, more than 200,000 strong, <i>tactically</i>. In other words, any French victory in the Waterloo campaign would have had to be strategic, i.e. a symbolic political achievement like marching into Brussels. (Whether that would have broken the coalition and ended the war, as Nappy hoped, I doubt; but for Nappy that's what the campaign was about.) On the other hand, the Allies' task in this campaign is to prevent that and to defeat the French army. It's not marching off to far-away Paris with Nappy undefeated in their rear. Hence, on the Waterloo map, for the purpose of this campaign, there are French exit hexes and the Allies have to defend them and/or destroy the French army. Third shot: I have seen campaigns on large maps where both sides have exit hexes yet way too much ground to cover to make sure there is a tactical engagement when both sides race for their exits. It's boring. <center> [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_walter/NWC/2nd_Dragoons.htm"][/url] Maj. Gen. D.S. "Green Horse" Walter ~ 2nd Dragoons (Royal Scots Greys) ~ 2nd (Union) Brigade, Cavalry Division, Anglo-Allied II Corps ---------- ~ 3rd (Prince of Wales's) Dragoon Guards ~ [url="http://www.geocities.com/militaireacademie/"][/url] </center>

Author:	Gary McClellan [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:15 am ]
Post subject:
I'll have to disagree with you on one point... that Napoleon could not have decisively defeated the Coalition tactically. I'll freely admit, it was extraordinarily unlikely, but not entirely impossible. Though, the only way I can see it happening is at that third and most mysterious level... operationally. In short, he would have had to taken the Prussians out of the situation at Ligny for a longer time than he did, and then not only defeat the Anglo-Allied, but do it decisively enough that he could have enganged in a pursuit and broken apart the army (especially the British). A long shot? To be sure, but not fundamentally impossible. Would that have saved Napoleon's throne? Probably not. Too many more Prussians, Austrians and Russians out there after his scalp, even if you assume such a catastrophic defeat would have led to a new peace government in London. If D'Erlon hadn't wasted the entire day between Ligny and Quatre Bras, and actually gone into the Prussian flank... Feldmarschall Freiherr Gary McClellan Generalissimus Imperial Austrian Army Portner Grenadier Bn Allied Coalition C-in-C

Author:	MarcoRietveld [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:38 am ]
Post subject:
You don't have to fire at me. Just a question [:D] Generaal-majoor Marco Rietveld I Corps Allied/Dutch Army

Author:	Al Amos [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:35 pm ]
Post subject:
There were French formations left at Ligny and (possibly) Quatre Bras because they were so shot up. They may have stopped any lone bn, or independant bde from traveling the 130 miles to Paris. Colonel Al Amos 1Ã¨re Brigade Commandant, 2Ã¨me Division de Dragons "Gare aux Dragons!" Ier Corps de RÃ©serve de Cavalerie "Vae Victis!" L'ArmÃ©e du Nord

Author:	clifton seeney [ Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:20 pm ]
Post subject:
Monsieur I think that the gentelman is talking the game not History and he has mixed the History with the game. General de Brig Kliff Marbot II Corps Art Res Division .Commander Marechal de Camp AN

Author:	Michael Ellwood [ Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:
Marshal Davout maybe? Col Mike Ellwood Commander VII (Saxon) Corps Cav ADR

Author:	Gary McClellan [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 6:37 am ]
Post subject:
History always mixes with the games. The setup of things like Victory Conditions and Exit Hexes should always reflect in some manner the realities that the commanders faced. Feldmarschall Freiherr Gary McClellan Generalissimus Imperial Austrian Army Portner Grenadier Bn Allied Coalition C-in-C

Author:	Andy Moss [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 7:17 am ]
Post subject:
Napoleon wanted/needed to decisively defeat the allied armies, not bypass them. Marching on Brussels was merely a means to an end. So I'd abolish the things as they lead to all sorts of dodgy gamey behaviour. Generaal 2de Brigade 2de Nederlandsche Div I Corps Anglo Allied Army

Author:	MarcoRietveld [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:17 am ]
Post subject:
I am not really a fan of these exit hexes either. I hardly ever use them and I don't think my opponents did either. Only in these small scenario's were you have to block your opponent they are perhaps necessary. Generaal-majoor Marco Rietveld I Corps Allied/Dutch Army

Author:	Colin Knox [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:47 am ]
Post subject:
Hi Guys I am not really a fan of exit hexes either. However I think it's crucial in the context of the Waterloo campaign to understand Brussells did represent a significant strategic prize for Napoleon. The loss of the low countries from the French empire was a heavy blow and the occupation of Brussels would most likely have resulted in them promptly declaring for France. Thus the entire Dutch Belgium contingent would have been added to the ADN. Indeed many of the soldiers of these forces had previously served with Napoleon and arguably their loyalties were mixed. Although it's worth adding that despite English historical attempts to portray otherwise they actually fought with honour and courage throughout the campaign. I would put this down to two things. Firstly the basic thing all soldiers feel in battle - loyalty to their brothers on their left and right and secondly an element of emerging nationalism. Returning to the wider strategic issue of Brussels ; Wellington was well aware of its importance hence his attempts to block the French march firstly at QB and latterly at the famous battle of Waterloo. The seizing of Brussels would also have finalised the division of the two allied armies with the likely result Wellington retiring to the north towards the sea and Blucher towards the general direction of the Rhine Hence Brussels represented the core goal of Napoleon's campaign both operationally and politically it was therefore the cornerstone of his grand strategy for 1815. By threatening and then capturing it he could achieve both military and political ends. He would also have received a huge boost to his personal prestige which remained a vital factor and would have solidified his tenuous hold on power in Paris (remember he had to leave his best Marechal behind). So in my opinion if you want to play the game historically the exit hexes are crucial. If you don't just agree before hand and make it a house rule not to use them. Salute! General de Brigade Knox Grand Duc d'Austerlitz et Comte de Argentan Escadron Mamelouks Chasseurs a'Cheval Division de Cavalerie la Vieille Garde. CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

Author:	D.S. Walter [ Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:
I agree with General Knox. The exit hexes are just there to represent the major prize that Brussels was for this campaign without adding another 10 miles of map. Just imagine these 10 miles more, and a, what, 5000? objective in Brussels, then you have the exact same situation, except the exit hex also guarantees that the objective is not achieved by taking a single hex with a lone squadron of hussars. You might also say that the exit hex makes sure there is a operational objective to the campaign and not merely the goal of killing more Allied soldiers than the Allies kill French soldiers. <center> [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_walter/NWC/2nd_Dragoons.htm"][/url] Maj. Gen. D.S. "Green Horse" Walter ~ 2nd Dragoons (Royal Scots Greys) ~ 2nd (Union) Brigade, Cavalry Division, Anglo-Allied II Corps ---------- ~ 3rd (Prince of Wales's) Dragoon Guards ~ [url="http://www.geocities.com/militaireacademie/"][/url] </center>

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