Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)
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Moral v Firepower Effect
https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10808		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Michael Ellwood [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Moral v Firepower Effect
Just thinking out loud and wondering if its possible and of any use.

I find that the losses to units before they become ineffective and hors d' combat is excessive and the fire power effect is in casualty numbers not so moral effect.

Therefore instead of the three moral levels with fatigue as we have now, is it possible to increase the fatigue/moral effect 'step levels' for each 100 points (or workable level) of fatigue?

This way as the fatigue gets higher, the chances of disorder and rout are increased but losses do not have to be excessive.

Rout as it is now is more flee in disorder. The chances of stopping, reforming and returning are high, even with red (max)fatige. I'd like to see a red zone fatigue that did not allow any forward movement towards enemy! Defend yes - go on the offence when battle fatigued and high losses- No.

That combined with maybe a support zone around each unit - similiar to a threat zone but giving an increase in moral to reduce the threat/fatigue levels and thus the chances of failing a moral test.

So a combination of support and threat zone effect, fire effect of casualties and fatigue (along with leaders, terrain etc) I think could be a possible advance in getting more realistic effects across the moral/combat effectiveness scale.

Any thoughts?

Col Mike Ellwood
Commander Officer
3rd Dragoon Division
Reserve Cavalry
Author:  Colin Knox [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:37 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hey Mike. Nice day a.

I guess one quick fix would be make units rout for more than 1 move. Say 2 and then a lower chance of rally.

The new morales in Austerlitz with rout limiting off are generating more routs from fairly low casualties so that's good.

A high fatigue normal line unit ends up with a moral rating of E. So they will rout at the drop of a hat. If we could convince HPS just to make the rallying a little harder it would improve the realism.





General de Brigade Knox
Grand Duc d'Austerlitz et Comte de Argentan

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Escadron Mamelouks
Chasseurs a'Cheval
Division de Cavalerie la Vieille Garde.

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CO. 1er Brigade, II Heavy Cavalry Division, Reserve Cavalry.
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Author:  Alexey Tartyshev [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:44 pm ]
Post subject: 
Agree with both points. Also the reduction in morale can be considered as it was done in New Settings Project. Haven’t seen Austerlitz yet - waiting for it to arrive - but if morale has been reduced it’s a good thing.

In previous HPS titles routs are rare and hence the casualty rates are unhistorical high even with ZOC kills off. In reality with a few exceptions (Eylua, Borodino) armies became ineffective for that day after 20-25% losses. Multiple fatigue levels (9 instead of 3) and longer rout recoveries are probably the best ways to simulate this. In such a way high morale levels of A, A+, B can still be kept to distinguish in between low-high quality units.


Major Alexey Tartyshev
Moscow Grenadiers Regiment
2nd Grenadier Division
8th Infantry Corps
2nd Army of the West (NWC)
Author:  Kosyanenko [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 6:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
Mike, both are scenario designers issues.

You may decrease Max fatigue level in pdt and hence affect it's effect on morale just in the same way as you describe. (To be honest I never managed to make such a change. It is governed by 9th line of pdt, but my changes never affected the gameplay) The only exception would be that units with fatigue of 300 and higher would all be treated as Max Fatigue.

Rally speed is directly affected by leaders Leadership value and their presence. Decrease in leaders numbers and quality would do exactly what you desire.

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<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>
Author:  clifton seeney [ Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
Here, Here, Mon ami bravo, I'm with you all the way on that we use to play the Empire rule in table top 30% French lost and 40% Allied could only fire. Game over when that was reach in total Army strength.

Col Kliff Marbot
3/3 e Artillerie de Cheval
2nd Div I Corps LaGrande Armee
Author:  Michael Ellwood [ Sat Feb 27, 2010 9:41 am ]
Post subject: 
Anton,

Ok I was wondering if that was possible, thanks for that. However I was thinking more of a gradual but accelerated increase in the chances of rout with "red fatigue" setting in a lot earlier than now. For example the "red" zone being reached before the casualties get to say 40% (just a figure plucked from the air at this stage).More on the % of the unit that have been made casualties. So a larger unit can take the punishment longer than a smaller unit.

Also have the units overall situation more dynamic in regards to moral adjusters eg having a support factor and terrain advantage increase to the moral check as there is the threat factors currently.

The rallying of fleeing troops and the ability of high fatigue and high casualty units to return to the fight is a bit too easy for my thinking. I like the idea of compulsory two move rout before being able to do anything with the unit at all.

I'm very much of the opinion that any unit with a high level of "red" fatigue or with casualties in excess of say 60% (again just a plucked number) should be denied the ability to act offensively or even advance towards the enemy.

Col Mike Ellwood
Commander Officer
3rd Dragoon Division
Reserve Cavalry
Author:  Bill Peters [ Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
I just tested out reducing the Max Fatigue value down to 600. Minimum Fatigue was still 0-299. Medium was 300-599. You hit Max after that. Thus no High Fatigue level.

You would get what you want in the area of not being able to melee again. They could still advance.

Not sure what other effects this would have on the game.

I know that I wont be asking John to change the levels of fatigue to be closer in value.

I do think that melee casualties are too high and that the attacker loses all too often when he has a flank bonus and numbers.

Even when you dont have the numbers a victory should be a possibility when Old Guard hits the flank of a militia unit.

But that is a separate issue. Suffice it to say that morale values are going to stay lower and the days of 5 and 6 morale for regular line infantry (other than elite regiments like the 57th Ligne, etc) is over.

Colonel Bill Peters, 17th Dragoons, III Corps, French Army
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
Swiss-Swedish Army CinC, Musket and Cannon Game Club - Come over and see what we are all about!
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Author:  Michael Ellwood [ Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:23 pm ]
Post subject: 
Bill,

Thanks for that. I realise it might have been a big ask changing the moral/fatigue levels. That solution you tried is an option I think.

I agree flank charges should be fairly cut and dried with the defender having no real chance unless the attack is over disordering terrain/hexside, then maybe a small chance to achieve a win but with quality a big deciding factor ie if the defender was of better quality than the attacker then yes a chance to "respond" and win.

Otherwise the lower moral values are definitely a step in the right direction.

I still like the idea of "support" and terrain advantage factors being added for moral tests.

Col Mike Ellwood
Commander Officer
3rd Dragoon Division
Reserve Cavalry
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