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HPS Waterloo Artillery Question
https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=10924		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  WillieD13 [ Fri May 14, 2010 12:03 am ]
Post subject:  HPS Waterloo Artillery Question
<font face="Comic Sans MS"><font size="3"><font color="yellow">I have recently obtained my first HPS Napoleonic game (Waterloo), and am trying to figure out a couple things. The notes state that artillery that has the capability to fire indirectly is indicated by a (I). I however, have yet to be able to find any artillery so designated, not even the howitzers. I have also not come across any commands on how make a gun fire indirectly. From my experimentation, it clearly does not appear to work the same way as indirect fire in FIW, 1776, and 1812. So:
1) Is there indirect fire in Waterloo?
2) If so, which guns can us indirect fire
3) How do I get the gun to fire indirectly?
</font id="Comic Sans MS"></font id="size3"></font id="yellow">

<font color="yellow">2nd Lieutenant Willie Davis
Light Bn Luneburg</font id="yellow">
Image
Author:  D.S. Walter [ Fri May 14, 2010 2:04 am ]
Post subject: 
To my knowledge, no artillery in HPS Waterloo has that ability.

<center>
[url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_walter/NWC/2nd_Dragoons.htm"]Image[/url]
Maj. Gen. D.S. "Green Horse" Walter
~ 2nd Dragoons (Royal Scots Greys) ~
2nd (Union) Brigade, Cavalry Division, Anglo-Allied II Corps
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~ 3rd (Prince of Wales's) Dragoon Guards ~
[url="http://home.scarlet.be/~tsh40803/AAA/BritGuardHorse.html"]Image[/url]
</center>
Author:  Richard [ Fri May 14, 2010 6:33 am ]
Post subject: 
Howitzers can use indirect fire in the company scale Waterloo scenarios, provided you download this update:

http://forums.gamesquad.com/downloads.p ... le&id=1298

(Indirect fire was unavailable for the Napoleonic series when the Waterloo expansion pack was originally released, but I updated the company scale scenarios subsequently)

I don't know about any of the other scenarios or titles - maybe Bill Peters can tell you.

Indirect fire is also possible in HPS <i>Renaissance</i>, especially for siege type scenarios. Some infantry (eg. archers) have this ability too.

To use indirect fire, just target a hex normally and if the unit has indirect fire capability it can still shoot at it even if out of LOS.
Author:  Bill Peters [ Fri May 14, 2010 1:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
Whinyate's Battery was armed with rockets. You will find them in the Cav Reserve artillery. Here is the unit:

U 6 5 C D 59 6 Whinyate Troop

Note: this unit only had a section of rockets. Rich would have to want to split up the unit in order to have them as a separate unit. He probably wont want to do that.

The weapon type would need to be changed and a new one entered in both the PDT file and the Weapons.dat file.

Then a + sign added after the letter in the PDT file to make it able to fire indirectly.

And frankly whenever you fire a rocket battery it should be fired indirectly but pack a mean whallop!

In fact a new designator should be added that is for weapons that can ONLY fire indirectly.

Why I say this is that aiming a rocket was imprecise at best. Unless there is a rocket expert here that has more data on that.

But anyway, the rocket battery needs to be updated and given an indirect fire ability.

I am updating all of my games to include that. Wagram is up next and then Jena. I believe that Jena is already done in that regard.

Dont know much about Waterloo honestly as its not one of my favorite campaigns and I didn't work on it either. Any questions about this need to be sent to Rich at the Support email account.


Colonel Bill Peters, 17th Dragoons, III Corps, French Army
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
Swiss-Swedish Army CinC, Musket and Cannon Game Club - Come over and see what we are all about!
Image
Author:  Antony Barlow [ Fri May 14, 2010 10:32 pm ]
Post subject: 
I'm not sure that indirect fire is really such a big issue as we can already fire artillery over the heads of friendly troops in a way that would never have happened in reality.

<center>[url="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.r.barlow/nwc/nwc_personal_record.htm"]Major General Antony Barlow[/url]
~ [url="http://home.scarlet.be/~tsh40803/AAA/Brit.html"]2nd British (Union) Brigade, Cavalry Division, II Corps, Anglo-Allied Army[/url] ~
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~ [url="http://home.scarlet.be/~tsh40803/AAA/BritGuardHorse.html"]4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards[/url] ~
Image</center>
Author:  D.S. Walter [ Sat May 15, 2010 6:08 am ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Antony Barlow</i>
<br />I'm not sure that indirect fire is really such a big issue as we can already fire artillery over the heads of friendly troops in a way that would never have happened in reality.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Yes--historical play should avoid that. But then guns should also better be able to defend themselves against attack (more of an issue in the ACW and EAW series than in the Nappy games).

Indirect fire however is for hitting targets behind cover, like mortars do.

<center>
[url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_walter/NWC/2nd_Dragoons.htm"]Image[/url]
Maj. Gen. D.S. "Green Horse" Walter
~ 2nd Dragoons (Royal Scots Greys) ~
2nd (Union) Brigade, Cavalry Division, Anglo-Allied II Corps
----------
~ 3rd (Prince of Wales's) Dragoon Guards ~
[url="http://home.scarlet.be/~tsh40803/AAA/BritGuardHorse.html"]Image[/url]
</center>
Author:  Bill Peters [ Sat May 15, 2010 5:05 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think that artillery was never meant for point blank defense. It still can pack a mean punch.

But stop and attack? Doubtful.

The grand battery of the Austrians at Wagram was very large (well, several grand batteries) but it didn't stop the French from advancing against the Austrians and causing them to retreat.

If artillery was the almighty weapon that some thing it is then all you would have to do is line up guns and totally deny that part of the battlefield to the enemy. But that is not how it worked out in history.

The main killing area for artillery was when the ground was dry and they could use ball to maximum advantage. Not cannister. This has already been shown in good books on the period.

Yes, it would be nice to have some sort of "smart" counter charge system or artillery retire system but aside from that I just keep some infantry nearby the can support the guns and I do most of my firing outside of one move's distance.

Where I can really get in good hits is AFTER the action is joined. I bring up six horse batteries and unlimber at 4 hexes away. With the enemy disordered he is not going to mount much of an attack and with my fresh reserves ready to support the guns and my (disordered) infantry already keeping the enemy tied down then my guns can do their deadly work.

Colonel Bill Peters, 17th Dragoons, III Corps, French Army
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
Swiss-Swedish Army CinC, Musket and Cannon Game Club - Come over and see what we are all about!
Image
Author:  WillieD13 [ Mon May 17, 2010 10:38 am ]
Post subject: 
<font face="Comic Sans MS"><font size="3"><font color="yellow">Okay, we've had a bit of interesting discussion, but no one has answered the questions. Does the game have indirect fire, and if so which guns and how? Obviously, if there is no indirect fire capability in the game, then which guns and how don't matter. Has anyone been able to use indirect fire in HPS Waterloo?</font id="Comic Sans MS"></font id="size3"></font id="yellow">

<font color="yellow">2nd Lieutenant Willie Davis
Light Bn Luneburg</font id="yellow">
Image
Author:  D.S. Walter [ Tue May 18, 2010 12:45 am ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by WillieD13</i>
<br /><font face="Comic Sans MS"><font size="3"><font color="yellow">Okay, we've had a bit of interesting discussion, but no one has answered the questions. Does the game have indirect fire, and if so which guns and how? Obviously, if there is no indirect fire capability in the game, then which guns and how don't matter. Has anyone been able to use indirect fire in HPS Waterloo?</font id="Comic Sans MS"></font id="size3"></font id="yellow">
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I think it has been answered in the first two replies. I told you that I don't know of any unit in Waterloo that can do that, and Rich said in some of the company scenarios they can. I only play battalion scale.

<center>
[url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_walter/NWC/2nd_Dragoons.htm"]Image[/url]
Maj. Gen. D.S. "Green Horse" Walter
~ 2nd Dragoons (Royal Scots Greys) ~
2nd (Union) Brigade, Cavalry Division, Anglo-Allied II Corps
----------
~ 3rd (Prince of Wales's) Dragoon Guards ~
[url="http://home.scarlet.be/~tsh40803/AAA/BritGuardHorse.html"]Image[/url]
</center>
Author:  WillieD13 [ Thu May 20, 2010 11:59 pm ]
Post subject: 
<font face="Comic Sans MS"><font size="3"><font color="yellow">You are correct sir, I just plain missed that. That being said, does anyone know if there might be a chance of incorporating that capability in future patches? I find that to be one of the best features in the EAW series.</font id="Comic Sans MS"></font id="size3"></font id="yellow">

<font color="yellow">2nd Lieutenant Willie Davis
Light Bn Luneburg</font id="yellow">
Image
Author:  Bill Peters [ Fri May 21, 2010 4:39 am ]
Post subject: 
The Howitzer (C & N) types probably will get a "+" mark after it in the PDT file in a future update.

It would be the ONLY type to get that btw. None of the other types qualify. And if Rich wanted to add in Rockets to the PDT and Weapons files (as well as a new unit in the OB) then they would get it too.

But dont look for him to split out all of the howitzers from the units to form sections. You would have to do that on your own.

Here is what we have now in the Weapons.dat file:

A 12 Pounder
B 6 Pounder
C Howitzer
D 6 PounderHorse
E 9 Pounder
F 9 Horse-Pound
G British Musket
I British Rifle
J 12 pfd. Pr.
K 6 pfd Pr.
L Lance
M Musket
N 7 pfd. Pr.
P Pike
R Rifle
S Sword

And here would be the new weapons lines for the PDT file:

A 1 10 2 7 3 5 6 4 7 3 9 2 16 1 -1
B 1 10 2 7 4 4 5 3 8 2 13 1 -1
C+ 1 10 2 7 3 4 7 2 11 1 -1
D 1 12 2 8 3 4 7 2 11 1 -1
E 1 10 2 7 3 5 6 3 8 2 14 1 -1
F 1 12 2 8 3 4 6 3 8 2 12 1 -1
G 1 7 2 2 -1
I 1 5 2 3 3 2 4 1 -1
J 1 8 2 5 3 4 6 3 7 2 9 2 15 1 -1
K 1 8 2 5 4 3 5 3 8 2 12 1 -1
M 1 5 2 1 -1
N+ 1 8 2 6 3 3 7 2 10 1 -1
R 1 4 2 2 3 1 -1

As you can see the + signs were added after the weapons letter in the PDT file.

Colonel Bill Peters, 17th Dragoons, III Corps, French Army
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
Swiss-Swedish Army CinC, Musket and Cannon Game Club - Come over and see what we are all about!
Image
Author:  WillieD13 [ Fri May 21, 2010 9:13 am ]
Post subject: 
<font face="Comic Sans MS"><font size="3"><font color="yellow">Okay, I put the + in the PDT, and the guns do fire indirectly. Still have to figure out how to switch back and forth from direct to indirect, but at least now the howitzers can fire over things. Oh, and yes, I took the time to split them out in the oob. It makes for a big and interesting change.</font id="Comic Sans MS"></font id="size3"></font id="yellow">

<font color="yellow">2nd Lieutenant Willie Davis
Light Bn Luneburg</font id="yellow">
Image
Author:  Michael Ellwood [ Fri May 21, 2010 11:54 am ]
Post subject: 
Hi Willie,

Did you split one or two guns from each bty?
Was it a seperate section or like a skm coy that could be re-absorbed back into the bty?
Do they have the same range as the parent bty?
What kind of casualty range is available? Is it the same as the bty firing at the same tupe of tgt or is it classed as a tgt in the open/biulding etc?

These would be great changes if done for the correct numbers per bty and the tgt area is still taken into consideration when calculating casualties eg troops in a viliage,chateau should still get reduced casualties as opposed to in the open. Woods and orchards should be classed as in open as the 'cover' actually adds to the 'shrapenal' effect.

However there should be a big range of no or high cas for units behind linear cover as to get a precise shot on a precise location was not easy and often the shells blew 'short' or 'long'. This was the major skill factor in firing such ammunition. Crew quality should have an impact in this casualty factor range.

Col Mike Ellwood
Commander Officer
3rd Dragoon Division
Reserve Cavalry
Author:  WillieD13 [ Sun May 23, 2010 2:09 am ]
Post subject: 
<font face="Comic Sans MS"><font size="3"><font color="yellow">All I did to split them out was add a duplicate line in the oob, for each battery, and adjusted the number and type of guns, i.e.:
U 8 5 B B 27 2 20e/6e Art à pied
now reads as:
U 6 5 B B 27 2 20e/6e Art à pied
U 2 5 B C 27 2 20e/6e Obus à pied
For all intents and purposes it turns the battery into a 6 gun battery and a 2 howitzer battery, or in the case of the British 5 & 1. While I realize this reduces the effectiveness of all, I think it is more realistic. After all, why should a battery of say 6lbs, firing at a range of 12 or 13, have 2 extra guns, when those 2 guns are actually howitzers, that cannot fire that far. The Prussian 7lb howitzers are even shorter ranged. Conversely, while they are small batteries, and don't inflict a lot of casualties, it is nice to be able to lob shots into those otherwise protected hollows, or other hexes your can nott otherwise see or target, due to some LoS restriction (such as the wheat fields, you know he is in there, you just can't see him, so direct fire cannot target him).
</font id="Comic Sans MS"></font id="size3"></font id="yellow">

<font color="yellow">2nd Lieutenant Willie Davis
Light Bn Luneburg</font id="yellow">
Image
Author:  Bill Peters [ Sun May 23, 2010 4:41 am ]
Post subject: 
There is no switching back and forth from Indirect to Direct fire with artillery. You either hold down the ALT button while you fire or you don't.

On your OB - did you create your own custom scenarios yet? How many of the batteries have you split out?

Remember that each unit has its own unit code for the .scn file. Thus if you add in these units you need to place them at the END of the ORG in question. Otherwise you could end up with a scenario that crashes.

Colonel Bill Peters, 17th Dragoons, III Corps, French Army
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
Swiss-Swedish Army CinC, Musket and Cannon Game Club - Come over and see what we are all about!
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