Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)
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The Manual vs. Actual Practice
https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11029		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Bill Peters [ Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:51 am ]
Post subject:  The Manual vs. Actual Practice
Rate the following armies for their ability to execute the drill book from 1805 all the way to 1815 based on the following year groups. Use a 1-10 for each group per army:

1. French
1805-1808
1809-1812
1813-1814
1815

2. British
1805-1810
1811-1814
1815

3. Prussian
1805-1807
1808-1812
1813-1814

4. Austrian
1805-1808
1809-1812
1813-1815

5. Russians
1805-1807
1808-1812
1813-1814
1815


Colonel Bill Peters, 17th Dragoons, III Corps, French Army
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
Swiss-Swedish Army CinC, Musket and Cannon Game Club - Come over and see what we are all about!
Image
Author:  Bill Peters [ Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:14 am ]
Post subject: 
My response:

1. French
1805-1808 - 7
1809-1812 - 6
1813-1814 - 4
1815 - 6

2. British
1805-1810 - 8
1811-1814 - 9
1815 - 8

3. Prussian
1805-1807 - 7
1808-1812 - 6
1813-1814 - 5

4. Austrian
1805-1808 - 7
1809-1812 - 7
1813-1815 - 6

5. Russians
1805-1807 - 7
1808-1812 - 7
1813-1814 - 6
1815 - 6

Colonel Bill Peters, 17th Dragoons, III Corps, French Army
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
Swiss-Swedish Army CinC, Musket and Cannon Game Club - Come over and see what we are all about!
Image
Author:  Colin Knox [ Sun Aug 01, 2010 8:59 am ]
Post subject: 
Bill an interesting question can I ask why?
The thing is the success of the French army was more around flexibility than rigid application of Drill which was more of a Prussian thing from Fred the greats period.



General de Brigade Knox
Grand Duc d'Austerlitz et Comte de Argentan

Image

Escadron Mamelouks
Chasseurs a'Cheval
Division de Cavalerie la Vieille Garde.

Image



CO. 1er Brigade, II Heavy Cavalry Division, Reserve Cavalry.
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm
Author:  Bill Peters [ Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:20 pm ]
Post subject: 
Actually as Al "Famous" Amos has pointed out the drill manual and the ability of troops to execute it when moving large bodies of men about the battlefield does lend itself to less disorder. Thus my concept of the poll.

Colonel Bill Peters, 17th Dragoons, III Corps, French Army
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
Swiss-Swedish Army CinC, Musket and Cannon Game Club - Come over and see what we are all about!
Image
Author:  Kosyanenko [ Mon Aug 02, 2010 1:36 am ]
Post subject: 
What could absence of Russian army possibly mean?

<center>Image</center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>
Author:  Jeka [ Mon Aug 02, 2010 2:12 am ]
Post subject: 
Anton,
Simply because Russian Army is without a rival! [:D]

<hr noshade size="1">
<b>general-feldmarshal prince Eugene Gulyaev-Smolenskiy aka Jeka
Club Secretary
4th Cavalry Corps
Leib-Gvardii Semenovskij Polk</b>
ImageImageImageImageImage
Image
Author:  Bill Peters [ Mon Aug 02, 2010 3:38 am ]
Post subject: 
"Yeah Bill, what about the Swedes? How dare you leave out the Swedes who would have thrashed the Russians in 1808-09 had they had more men in uniform. We all know that the Swedes and Finns can lick any Russian army on equal terms (to include 1939). Must be an Illuminati conspiracy that caused you to leave the greatest army on earth out of the list!" (sent to me by email from Bill Peters, that Swede whose family came over from the old country via Minnesota)

Leaving out the Russians was by accident and not design. As I posted the thread I also thought that maybe the Spanish, Danes, Dutch and a couple of others were left out as well such as Hesse which had a fine military reputation.

Hmm, that is funny. You dont hear any Spanish members complaining about their army not being listed here. Or any of the other armies that were left out.

Just the usual wounded, offended crowd. The diaper change room is to the left Anton.

Colonel Bill Peters, 17th Dragoons, III Corps, French Army
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
Swiss-Swedish Army CinC, Musket and Cannon Game Club - Come over and see what we are all about!
Image
Author:  Ivan A.P. [ Mon Aug 02, 2010 4:54 am ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
You dont hear any Spanish members complaining about their army not being listed here.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

You forgot the Spanish Army [:D][:D][:D]

<center>
Image

<b><font color="red">Oberstleutnant</font id="red"> Iván <font color="red">'Freiherr'</font id="red"> Alpuente<hr noshade size="1">
Chief<font color="red"> of</font id="red"> Staff<hr noshade size="1">
<font color="red">Berger </font id="red"> Grenadier <font color="red"> Battalion</font id="red">
<hr noshade size="1">
<font color="red">2</font id="red"> Erzherzog <font color="red">Karl</font id="red"> Legion <font color="red">Bn</font id="red">
***** <font color="red">II</font id="red"> Armee <font color="red">Korps</font id="red"> *****
<font color="red">Kaiserliche</font id="red"> Armee von <font color="red">Österreich</font id="red"></b>

Image</center>
Author:  Kosyanenko [ Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:25 am ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
Hmm, that is funny. You dont hear any Spanish members complaining about their army not being listed here. Or any of the other armies that were left out.

Just the usual wounded, offended crowd. The diaper change room is to the left Anton.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Errr... I just have problems to name an Army that fielded up to 300 000 men that was left out. Believe me if you forgot the Brits or Aussies you'd hear quite a few voices.

Anyways, as the list is now more or less complete here you go:
French
05-08 8
09-12 7
13-14 5
15 6

British
all 7 or 8

Prussian
05-07 9
08-12 9
13-14 5

Austian
all 6 or 7

Russian
05 10
06-12 8
13-14 6
15 9

Helga some vodka here! Our french camrades are loosing their nerve only from our names being called.

<center>Image</center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Adjutant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>
Author:  Jeka [ Mon Aug 02, 2010 9:07 am ]
Post subject: 
Swedes... Who is it?

<hr noshade size="1">
<b>general-feldmarshal prince Eugene Gulyaev-Smolenskiy aka Jeka
Club Secretary
4th Cavalry Corps
Leib-Gvardii Semenovskij Polk</b>
ImageImageImageImageImage
Image
Author:  Colin Knox [ Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:12 am ]
Post subject: 
The Swedes are between the carrots and the potatoes[:D]

And Bill where is the New Zealand rating?

We fought with distinction for the British colonial forces in the great battle of the 7 mangos. This was vs the pygmies of the Congo who were armed with sharpened pieces of mango. It was a long and tough fight. We only won when we blockaded them and they were forced to eat their weapons[:D].

General de Brigade Knox
Grand Duc d'Austerlitz et Comte de Argentan

Image

Escadron Mamelouks
Chasseurs a'Cheval
Division de Cavalerie la Vieille Garde.

Image



CO. 1er Brigade, II Heavy Cavalry Division, Reserve Cavalry.
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm
Author:  Al Amos [ Mon Aug 02, 2010 12:40 pm ]
Post subject: 
"The diaper change room is to the left Anton."

With comments like this, it would be better if the boards were just shut down permanently. Seriously, can't we treat each other better than this?

al

Colonel Amos, 1ère Brigade Commandant, 2ème Division de Dragons

http://albert-amos.blogspot.com/
Author:  D.S. Walter [ Mon Aug 02, 2010 7:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Colin Knox</i>
<br />Bill an interesting question can I ask why?
The thing is the success of the French army was more around flexibility than rigid application of Drill which was more of a Prussian thing from Fred the greats period.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Yes. Actually the recipe for success in the 19th century is to have regulations which institutionalize flexibility. That's where Prussia excelled.

<center>
[url="http://www.dswalter.net/NWC/2nd_Dragoons.htm"]Image[/url]
Maj. Gen. D.S. "Green Horse" Walter
~ 2nd Dragoons (Royal Scots Greys) ~
2nd (Union) Brigade, Cavalry Division, Anglo-Allied II Corps
----------
~ 3rd (Prince of Wales's) Dragoon Guards ~
[url="http://home.scarlet.be/~tsh40803/AAA/BritGuardHorse.html"]Image[/url]
</center>
Author:  Bill Peters [ Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:33 pm ]
Post subject: 
Dierk - Flexibility in part but face it, the Allies of 1813 for instance were limited in their ability to maneuver on the battlefield when in line which means that in order to get the troops from point A (line formation) to point B they must change into column to do so.

An advance of 100 yards by an Austrian line would almost always lead to disorder for example. I call that inflexible.

And the column was a more maneuverable formation but for firepower the line was still superior.

But yes, there were tactical refinements over the drill book that were improvements. Peter H. in his Osprey book on the Prussian Cavalry of the later period discusses how some of the complex maneuvers were really not well suited for the battlefield.

But Rothenberg points out rightly that the Austrians of the later period lacked the ability to maneuver on the battlefield. Which was party why they really didn't do so well in the War of Liberation.

The Russians had suffered huge losses in Russia and Poland in 1812-13. They were replacing their ranks with men from the militia battalions. Not exactly fine military men.

Colonel Bill Peters, 17th Dragoons, III Corps, French Army
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt, Austerlitz and ... more to come)
Swiss-Swedish Army CinC, Musket and Cannon Game Club - Come over and see what we are all about!
Image
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