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How do you feel about rout limiting? https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11091 |
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Author: | Vincent [ Fri Sep 10, 2010 6:20 pm ] |
Post subject: | How do you feel about rout limiting? |
I just wanted to find out what everyone thinks about this optional rule? Depending on the scenario, it seems like without it gives the French an unfair advantage. Some players I've met opt to always play without rout limiting enabled. I've seen good portions of my army rout as the Prussians only 3-4 turns into a match on a 60 turn scenario. So use it, don't use it? Maybe depends on the scenario? If you don't ever use this rule, what are some good tactics you can suggest to keep your men in order? |
Author: | WillieD13 [ Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:16 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: How do you feel about rout limiting? |
I like it, and use it when possible. I think without it, you get extremely unrealistic results. I've had whole lines up and rout, simply from a couple artillery shots at one unit. |
Author: | Bill Peters [ Sat Sep 11, 2010 11:09 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: How do you feel about rout limiting? |
Yes, I wont play without it either. I echo Willie's thoughts. It seems that the routs get out of hand all too often. As to whether it favors one side or another ... well since the morale ratings are roughly the same across the board in this series I would say that you would see it about equal. If you do use it make sure that you have the Flank Morale Modifier turned ON. Otherwise there is no bonus for having the troops with secure flanks. And that was one of the reasons why troops would run. |
Author: | Colin Knox [ Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:05 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: How do you feel about rout limiting? |
I prefer to play without this rule ticked. This is principally because I think units should rout more in the game so anything that makes morale take a stronger role then one should do it in my view. As for preventing it. Unfortunately the game engine favours the use of high grade units for defense and poor units for attack. So I suggest in areas where great pressure will be exerted you position your guard or B units there. |
Author: | Vincent [ Sat Sep 11, 2010 3:49 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: How do you feel about rout limiting? |
The only reason I say it's an unfair advantage is because the French have the best command structure. And I have to agree that the rate at which units rout without it on is far too unrealistic, though I have met players who will only play without it and they had made the realism claim as well. |
Author: | Colin Knox [ Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:03 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: How do you feel about rout limiting? |
It's all personal preference really. Command structure is a bit of an excuse though I often play the allied side (as I am in Austerlitz at the moment) and the allied forces have other intrinsic advantages one can exploit. |
Author: | Vincent [ Sat Sep 11, 2010 4:43 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: How do you feel about rout limiting? |
It might be an excuse in some cases, but it is true nonetheless. Having 7 units rout in one turn from a couple of cannon shots just seems highly unrealistic to me. I guess it depends on what you like. Some prefer to be as realistic as possible, I try to find the best balance between gameplay and realism I can. |
Author: | Remeta [ Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:55 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: How do you feel about rout limiting? |
I like unlimited rout, it's very interesting to change own plans after mass rout. But it's the main reason of my defeats from other side ![]() I think, unlimited rout level is the only factor that makes game unpredictable. I guess, the real fight always has many vague things but the game engine has rout level only. (Game without optional battle results is not playable version of optional rules for me). The only really hard point under unlimited rout is defending of high value objects - I just prefer scenarios with many low value objects. |
Author: | Alexey Tartyshev [ Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:00 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: How do you feel about rout limiting? |
I do not play with this rule ON. The reasons were well summarized in New Settings Project: “........we hope to find a number of players who want a more historical feeling for their battles: less blitzkrieg and massacres and more maneuver and morale breaking. The main point is the low-morale approach. The current effective morale of units is too high, allowing the players to send decimated and highly fatigued units back into the fray, to kill and be killed. This (among other reasons) provokes battles with way too high casualties. Historically the men would abandon the field before reaching these high casualty levels. One way to reduce effective morale is not using the morale-boosting optional rules: flank morale bonus and rout limiting. This makes massive assaults more dangerous, since one rout can spread to a whole sector. It also favors rest and reorder of your units: leaving them in the front line means risking a rout spread that can open a big gap in your defence.Another way is through OOB changes........ Soldiers too brave and stoic. The morale of units is too high and the control of the commander too tight. Decimated, heavily fatigued Bns. go back to the front line ready for more bloodshed.” WillieD13 wrote: I think without it, you get extremely unrealistic results. I've had whole lines up and rout, simply from a couple artillery shots at one unit. - Firstly, this is just pure numbers game – in terms of engine calculations, the chances that a whole division will rout due to an artillery hitting a couple of dozens of men in one battalion are extremely slim. - Secondly, it COULD happen and there is nothing wrong with this situation occurring now and then: “Panic gathered volume like a snowball. The situation on battlefield was fluid and fast moving, men were under tremendous stress and troops could be overcome with panick in any moment. Often those who started the run, and thereby spread the fear, which started the panic, had a legitimate or at least a reasonable excuse for the action. For example, an officer was hit and the next he was running for a first-aid station in the rear without telling his own troop why he was getting out. They took out after him and the line broke. Others who hadn't seen the officer make his dash saw someone else in flight. They too ran. It all happened in a flash as fear is contagious. Other men nearby become stampeded by the appearance of flight. Only if the enemy was not in close pursuit there was chance to stop the flight. - In 1814 at Berg-op-Zoom, the British 55th and 69th Regiment of Foot advanced in the dark then suddenly broke and fled in a wild panick. According to Geeorge Nafziger "not a shot was fired at them, nor was a single Frenchman seen." (- "Imperial Bayonets" 1996 p 164) - Costello described panic in the British Light Division that occured during a siege. "Here a very strange panic occurred, that might have been attended with most disastrous effects. ... when a general alarm and outcry was raised in the division that 'The French were upon us'. In a moment I started up, and seized my rifle. The different regiments were assembling in the greatest disorder, while the general cries of alarm on all sides induced many to feel a terror that was, perhaps, never felt in battle. ... After a short while the panic ceased: we all looked foolish enough at the great ado about nothing, though some attributed the cause to French spies having got among us, others to some bullocks grazing by ..." (Costello - "The Peninsular and Waterloo Campaigns" p 70) - Chlapowski described panic among the French soldiers of Marshal Davout's superb corps during foraging. Chlapowski writes, "At midnight we were woken by a great uproar from behind Marshal Davout's corps on the right. The Emperor and all his staff mounted up and he sent some of us off in the direction of the shouting. We came back over the next half to three quarters of an hour with reports that many of our soldiers were running about without their weapons, shouting that Archduke John was upon us. But the Emperor was not disturbed by these stories ... It turned out that this nonsense had been started by French soldiers foraging for food and hay in the night, who had run across some Bavarian soldiers doing the same thing, and on hearing them speaking German had fled in panic spreading the rumor which had eventually reached us." (Chlapowski - "Memoirs of a Polish Lancer" p 87, translated by Tim Simmons)” http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/infantry_tactics_2.htm#_esprit_de_corps - Finnally, there is a fundamental deficiency in how HPS projects masses of men on space (terrain). For example, a player can mass a division in three-four-five stacks of 1,500 infantry in each (or 600 caavalry in each) in order to defeat enemy battalions of 700-800-900 men in line. This is fundamentally wrong as it was not possible to pereserve formation of so many men in so limited space. This is not historical and massvie clashes of thousands of men densly packed on a mere a few hundred metres of the ground also contributes to excessive casulaties. Simiralry, a battalion in line of 800 men creates tremendous firepower in front of its 100m front, which is rather suited for battles of WWI. In reality a battalion of 800 men formed in three ranks should cover about 200 in line and hence have far less firepower projecting on 100m of the front. Rout limiting ON aggravates this problem further by promoting a player to mass units in the same or contiguous hex for attack or line them up in contiguous hexes in defence (in line) to maximis fire power or melee potential. The more historical approach is to leave gaps in between unis to avoid massive routing, and also to rely on second eshelon and tacktical reserves rahter than on massive stacks of troop aiming to resolve the combat in one massive half an hour melee. Napoleonic battles were about breaking the enemy morale - not about massacring half of the enemy army. Rout limiting ON is one more step towards excesive losses. |
Author: | jalberti [ Sun Sep 12, 2010 9:58 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: How do you feel about rout limiting? |
I play using the rule. This is one of those rules that I would not play without it. I have played the same scenario with the rule on and off the results are very significant. I have experienced whole sections of an army break and run only after a few turns have played. Having that happen just makes me want to quit the scenario and move on to another. I understand we want historical set ups and rules, but the scenarios have to be somewhat fun to play and a challenge. Fighting with a routed army is no fun at all! ![]() |
Author: | Vincent [ Sun Sep 12, 2010 10:35 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: How do you feel about rout limiting? |
Thanks Dean, that was a well thought out post and I see your point and could understand why some players play without the rule on. Conversely I still understand the preference to use it. I think Some aren't looking for absolute historicity in their battles and I still contest that mass routs happen more often then they should in a battle. I think I will experiment a bit more with the rule off and see how things work out. I do like historic battles but It's also very frusturating for a game to be over in 4-5 turns because such a large portion of my men have routed. |
Author: | nelmsm [ Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:26 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: How do you feel about rout limiting? |
I play with it off and Flank Morale modifier on usually. Something to be considered is corsetting higher quality units between your lower quality units to help decrease the chance of one rout leading to several. I never seem to get it done as much as I'd like to because I usually forget about it until half way through a move...or later, but it is an option. |
Author: | Theron Lambert [ Sun Sep 12, 2010 7:21 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: How do you feel about rout limiting? |
"I do like historic battles but It's also very frusturating for a game to be over in 4-5 turns because such a large portion of my men have routed." I prefer to play without rout limiting for many of the reasons that have already been presented. As a counter argument to the above, if at this point in the game a significant rout spells defeat, there is something wrong with your deployment. Successful commanders of this period nearly always maintained a reserve (either to plug such holes as these, or to exploit opportunities that may arise) -- if you don't have one you're asking for trouble. If a reverse in one area early on spells disaster, the probability is that your operational plan and/or deployment are seriously faulty. Regards, |
Author: | Alexey Tartyshev [ Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:10 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: How do you feel about rout limiting? |
Theron Lambert wrote: I prefer to play without rout limiting for many of the reasons that have already been presented. As a counter argument to the above, if at this point in the game a significant rout spells defeat, there is something wrong with your deployment. Successful commanders of this period nearly always maintained a reserve (either to plug such holes as these, or to exploit opportunities that may arise) -- if you don't have one you're asking for trouble. If a reverse in one area early on spells disaster, the probability is that your operational plan and/or deployment are seriously faulty. Regards, I was going to mention exactly the same. Historically, the side on defense would have in depth deployment with multiple reserves - so if HPS player finds a big chunk of his army routed by turn 4-5 there is somthing wrong with the deployment. |
Author: | Vincent [ Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:26 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: How do you feel about rout limiting? |
I would disagree with that...I don't think anything is wrong with my deployment and I do make a point of keeping reserves. Keep in mind this is a preference. |
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