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H&R comment - national artillery variations https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11213 |
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Author: | pgeerkens [ Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:25 pm ] |
Post subject: | H&R comment - national artillery variations |
I thought I would make an observation on one single aspect of the H&R discussion, so created a new thread. In particular, when considering national artillery variations, it is important to consider the complete trade-off between charge-size, barrel length, rate of fire, and supply ability. At short range, let's say under 300 m, you fired as fast as you could until the enemy went away, you ran out of ammo, or the barrel overheated. But at longer ranges it was important to fire slowly enough that the barrel didn't over heat, so that in a crisis situation you could fire quickly. Now consider the smaller charge used by the Austrians. This reduces maximum range, but has the beneficial effect of heating the barrel less, allowing a greater rate of fire (for round shot). This should be refflected in the PDT with increased fire power at medium range, let's say 4/5/6 hexes. This increased rate of fire of course consumes ammunition faster, of course, which fits in nicely with the extremely long supply trains that the Austrians were famous for having, enabling a greater rate of fire. This is also consistent:
Likewise, national guns with shorter barrels should have increased fire power at short range, accompanied with reduced fire power at long range but possibly a higher rate of fire at medium range (if national supply capability could keep up - probably not so for the Russians except in Russia itself.) and possibly a slightly increased chance each turn of running short on ammo. According to my readings Austrian field batteries of 6lbs had shorter barrels thatn did the 6lb position batteries. This actually gives the Austrian player a nice artillery mix when properly modelled. Ideally the engine would track shot and case ammo separately for each battery, but we can't have everything all at once. With these changes, one might see decided advantages to losing a bit of range. Also, where barrel lengths are known, a nationality might have some guns of each type, |
Author: | Alexey Tartyshev [ Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:40 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: H&R comment - national artillery variations |
There are two complex issues here. 1. The theoretical justification of FP differences for various nations. Establishing the constant values of some variables like charge-size, accuracy, rate of fire, and supply ability mentioned above is not easy to say at least. For example, rate of fire and supply availability (and in occasionally quality of ammo) were never the same and in one’s turn dependant on other variables –e.g. tactical situation, personal preferences, weather, speed of manoeuvring and changing positions, timing, condition of the ground, the age of the barrels (the section of the barrel) etc. Trying to generalise all these variables is not realistic. I am attaching a few tables from Nafziger to facilitate the discussion. At a number of points, these tables contradict the information found in other sources which complicates the issue even further. Also, as noted in the book, Nafziger research was based on a number of assumptions due to lack of information and especially the lack of reliable scientific tests. Also, occasionally the data available was from 1820s and even as late as 1860s. In 1904, Colonel Nylus, the inspector of Artillery Academy and the author of a few textbooks on artillery undertook a gigantic research with a goal of establishing the effectiveness of similar guns across various nations from Napoelonic era. He examined the following sources: 1. Gassendi: „Aide memoire a l'usage des officiers d'Artillerie“. 1801 2. Lamartilliere: 1) „Reflexions sur la fabrication en general des bouches a feu — 1847“ и 2) „Recherches sur les meilleurs effets a obtenir dans 1'artillerie“. 1819 3. Cotty: „Encyclopedie methodique“. 1822 4. Tables des principales dimensions et poids des bouches a feu des artilleries principales de l'Europe. 1827. 5. Marion: „Notice sur les obusiers“, 6. Duchand: „Observations critiques sur l'organisation nouvelle de l'artillerie“. 1835 7. Le Bourg: „Essai sur l'organisation de l'artillerie“. 1836 8. „Cours special a l'usage de sous-officiers de l'artillerie“. 1840 9. Migout et Bergery: „Theorie des affuts et des voitures d'artillerie“. 1840. 10. Thiroux: „Instruction d'artillerie“. 1842. 11. Poisson. Memoire sur la probabilite du tir a la cible“, 12. Poisson. Formules relatives aux effets du tir d'un canon sur les differentes parties de son affuts“ 1825 и 1838 13. Piobert „Proprietes et effets de la poudre“. 1839 14. Piobert Cours d'artillerie — theorie et applications“, 1841 15. Piobert Traite d'artillerie theorique et pratique 1846 16. Piobert Memoires sur les poudres de guerre des differents procedes de fabrication“. 1844. 17. Piobert Recherches sur le mouvement des projectiles dans les armes a feu“. 1864 18. Didion: 1) „Memoire sur la balistique“. 1846; 19. Didion „Traite de balistique“ 1848; 20. Didion „Des lois de la resistence de l'air“. 1856 и 1857 21. Helie: 1) „Memoires sur la probabilite du tir des projectiles de l'artillerie“. 1856 22. Helie: Traite de balistique experimentale“. 1865 23. Fave: „Nouveau systeme d'artillerie de campagne de Louis-Napoleon Bonaparte“. 1850 24. Timmerhans: „Essai d'un traite elementaire d'artillerie“.. 1839 25. Timmerhans: Experience faites a Liege sur les carabines a double rayure et celles a canons lisses“. 1840 26. Timmerhans: Historique de l'artillerie Belge“. 1836. 27. Coquilhat: „Percussions initiales sur les affuts“. 1863 28. Coquilhat: „„Notes sur les projectiles creux“. 1854 29. St. Roberto Des effets de la rotation de la terre“. 1858. 30. St. Roberto Du mouvement des projectiles dans les milieux resistants 31. St. Roberto Sur l'analyse du charbon“. 1860 32. St. Roberto Etudes sur la trajectoire que decrivent les projectiles oblongs“ 1866 33. St. Roberto Notes sur le volume de l'embrasure“ 1859. 34. St. Roberto Consideration sur le tir des armes a feu rayees“. 1860; 35. St. Roberto Memoires scientifiques“ (Balistique et Artillerie). 1872–73 36. St. Roberto „Des projectiles lenticulaires 37. „Leitfaden zum Unterricht in der Artillerie“. 1818 и 1829. 38. К. и J. Smola. „Handbuch fur k. k. Oestereichische Artillerie-Officiere“. 1831 и 1838 г 39. Otto „Mathematische Theorie des Ricoscheten schuss 40. Kameke: „Erlauterung zu der Sammlung von Steindruckzeichnungen der materiellen Gegenstende der Preussischen Artillerie“ 1837 и 1847 41. Jacobi: „Beschreibung des Materials und der Ausrustungs des Niederlandische (1836), Franzosische (1837)[263], Wurtembergische (1837), Englische (1837), Hessische (1838), Nassauische (1839), Schwedische (1840), Bayerische (1841) und Oesterreichische (1843) Feld-Artillerien 42. Burg: „Zeichnen und Aufnehmen des Artillerie Materials“. 1845 43. Hutz: „Die Feldartillerie und ihre Organisation“. 1853 и „Die Organisation und die Leistungen der Feldartillerie“ — 44. A. Schuberg: „Handbuch der Artillerie Wissenschaft“. 1856 45. Oelze: „Lehrbuch der Artillerie“. 1856. 46. Handbuch fur die Officiere der kon. Preuss. Artillerie. 1860. 47. Hand- und — Taschenbuch fur Officiere der Preussischen Feldartillerie.“ 1865 48. „Leitfaden zum Unterricht in der Artillerie.“ 1866 49. Decker: „Geschichte des Geschutz-wesens und der Artillerie in Europa“, 1822 50. „Die Artillerie fur alle Waffen“, 1826 51. „Les batailles et les principaux combats de la guerre de Sept ans consideres principalement sous le rapport de l'emploi de l'artillerie“. 1837 52. E. Tennent. „The story of the gun“. 1864 53. Griffiths: „The artillerists manuel and british soldier's compendium“,1847, 1859 и 1873 54. 1. „Краткое обозрение состояния артиллерии с 1798 по 1848 гг.“. 1853 55. 2. „Краткое историческое описание древних российских пушек“. 1808 56. 3. „Разные положения о иностранных артиллериях 57. 4. А. Маркевич. Артиллерийского искусства 58. Гогель: „Основания артиллерийской и понтонной науки“. 1816 59. Резвый: „Артиллерийские записки“. В 1843, 1847 и 1853 60. Вессель: „Артиллерия“. 1851–57. С 61. Безак: „Руководство для артиллерийской службы“. 1853. 62. Крыжановский. Очерк устройства и хозяйства французской артиллерии. 1858 63. Шварц и Крыжановский: „Справочная книжка для артиллерийских офицеров“, 1862 (III часть — 1870). 64. Баранцев „Краткий обзор преобразованиям в артиллерии с 1856–1865“. 65. Анкудович. „Теория баллистики“. 1836 66. Маиевский. „О давлении пороховых газов на стены орудия и приложение результатов опытов к определению толщины стен орудий“. 1856. 67. Douglas: „A treatise on naval gunnery“, 1820 68. Dub (перевод Риффеля): „Manuel concernant la connaissance, la fabrication etc... des armes a feu“, 1858. 69. Breithaupt: „Technisches Handbuch fur angehende Artilleristen“, 1821. 70. Busch und Hoffman: „Die Kriegsfeuerwerkerei der Preussischen Artillerie“, 1851. 71. Meyer: „Erfarungen uber Fabrication des eisernen und bronzenen Geschutzes“, 1831, и „Handbuch der Thechnologie fur Artillerie Offiziere“, 1835. 72. Muller: „Waffenlehre“, 1859. 73. Больдт: „Руководство для изучения военного огнестрельного оружия“, 1858. 74. Bottee et Riffault: „L'art de salpetrier“, 1831 (переведено на русский язык в 1849 г.) и „Traite de l'art de fabriquer la poudre a canon“, 1811. 75. Cazaux: „Nombreuses experiences nouvelles confirmant la theorie de la poudre“, 1837. 76. Charpentier-Cossigny: „Recherches physiques et chimiques sur la fabrication de la poudre“, 1837. 77. Rieffel: „Recherches sur la Theorie de la force de la poudre“, 1851. 78. Schiesspulver und Feuerwaffen: „Illustrirte Ubersicht“, 1866. 79. Decker (перевод Terquem'а): „Experiences sur les schrapnels, faites chez la plus part des puissances“, 1847. 80. Tortel: „Memoires divers sur les obus a balles ou schrapnels“, 1889. 81. Dahlgren; „Shells and shell-guns“, 1857. 82. Badini: „Cenne sulle granate a cassa sferica dette comunemente schrapnel“, 1852. 83. Espiard de Colonge: „Artillerie pratique“. 84. Scheel: „Memoires d'artillerie, contenant l'artillerie nouvelle“. 1765 85. Durtubie: „Manuel de l'artilleur“. 1792–1795 86. Monge: „Description de l'art de fabriquer les canons“. 1794 87. Scharnhorst: „Handbuch der Artillerie“. 1804–1814 88. Th. Morla: „Lehrbuch der Artilleriewissenschaft“. 1795 89. Papacino d'Antoni: „Institutioni physico-mechaniche“. 90. Papacino d'Antoni: „Uso delle Armi da fuoco“ — „De l'usage des armes a feu“, 1785 91. Hutton: „Nouvelles experiences d'Artillerie“.— 1802 92. Данилов: „Начальное значение теории и практики артиллерии“. 1762 93. Вельяшев-Волынцев: „Артиллерийские предложения“, 1767 94. Шувалов: „Описание новой артиллерии“. 1758. 95. Лопатин: „Записки о штате артиллерии до 1772 г“. 96. Русская артиллерия в памятниках своего искусства“ (1389–1889) 97. Ген. Бранденбург: „Исторический каталог С. П. Артиллерийского музея“; 1877–1889 His conclusion can be found on page 42 of the H&R Main PDF. Of course we are all welcome to try to come up with something better than colonel Nylus, but most people would agree that it is hard to be optimistic about the credibility of such findings. Most likely to arrive at the justified and credible findings, it will require an international team of highly specialized professionals in the fields of military history, artillery, physics, linguistics and mathematics, along with ability to conduct laboratory testing and forensic investigations. Even in this case, such team would have to operate under a number of assumptions, in particular regarding the availability of ammo and actual, in battle rate-of –fire which was dependent on the tactical situations and specific orders of the field commanders. 2. In-game application of FP. Even assuming the hypothetical scenario that for example an Austrian 3-lbr was superior to Frenhc 3-lbr we face another complex issue. How do you measure the difference and apply it correctly to PDT FP table? Also, artillery FP changes should take into account the minutes per turn and in-game movement speed factors. For example, in the game, it might take 3 turns for infantry to approach the guns, which is translated to 30 min (less hypothetical command delay for infantry). How do you adjust FP to make it more historical taking into account that in-game FP and opportunity to shell the enemy does not necessarily reflect the number of volleys the battery could fire ? Furthermore: “The only statistics available on the actual casualties that were ever inflicted on an attacking unit come from the German historian Muller and are given in Table 88. He served in the King's German Legion and assessed the numbers of casualties inflicted by a 6-pdr during such an attack. In addition, he used a higher rate of fire in his calculations. The average was two round shot per minute or three canister, but Muller seems to believe that the artillerists could reach a rate of eight rounds per minute when being charged. Unfortunately, he does not indicate the type of formation being fired upon, which would make a considerable difference in the number of casualties likely to be inflicted. Inasmuch as cavalry generally operated in line it must be as-sumed that the figures for cavalry casualties are based on firing on such a formation. With that assumption, one should also assume that he was consistent in his assess-ments and that the infantry were also formed in line.” (Nafziger, Imperial Bayonets, p 271) As of today, there are no comparative findings on causalities inflicted by artillery, hence how do we know how to measure the relative effectives of our FP changes across different nations and especially at different ranges? Finnally, the HPS FP scale generally ranges from 16 FP to 1 FP. But it is likely that, the difference in FP of guns used by various nations would be not that material and the current FP scale (from 16 to 1) is not detailed enough to model the possible damage which can be inflicted by guns used by various nations esspecially at different ranges. A more gradual and detailed FP curve is need for this (for example like 32 FP to 1 FP) but as of now it is not how the engine is designed. |
Author: | Alexey Tartyshev [ Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:41 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: H&R comment - national artillery variations |
accuracy and ammo |
Author: | Alexey Tartyshev [ Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:44 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: H&R comment - national artillery variations |
Comparioson of stats for various nations |
Author: | Colin Knox [ Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:28 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: H&R comment - national artillery variations |
Alexey I am impressed by your sources they are clearly superb. However have you allowed for the crews, their training, nationality and experience? The French Guard Horse artillery firing a 6pdr are going to be much much more effective than most others. The A morale rating is not the only way to reflect this in my view and I know Bill referred to this in one of his posts. Salute! |
Author: | Alexey Tartyshev [ Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:18 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: H&R comment - national artillery variations |
Thanks Colin. You are right - we have not accounted for the human factor. We kind of did with the Guard units. Who have morale “A” – hence +20 FP modifier, but at this stage that’s about it. I agree it should be modeled but the question is how. I personally believe, the differences should be extremely marginal. I am attaching the FP table in Excel format so maybe together, we can all come up with something better, universally agreed and justified. Gentlemen, please feel free to amend the FP and post it here with a short justification on how to measure the training /experience factor consistently, taking into account the factors of nationality and the year of the Campaign. The more opinions the better. |
Author: | pgeerkens [ Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:34 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: H&R comment - national artillery variations |
Alexey, Thank you for the references. I regret that I can do no more than quickly glance at them just now. On training, I think differences should be most apparent at short range, and less apparent at longer. Firing round shot, which is done at a relaxed pace to keep the barrel cool, accuracy is really dependent on the gun layer for each crew. Firing case in a crisis situation, the entire crew must be quickly performing theirtasks and getting ouot of each other's way. IMHO |
Author: | Alexey Tartyshev [ Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:37 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: H&R comment - national artillery variations |
pgeerkens wrote: On training, I think differences should be most apparent at short range, and less apparent at longer. That was exactly my way of thinking. The issue is how to measure training /experience variable and translate this into FP PDT. Modifiers would have been the best way to do it. For example, as of now “A” quality gives +20, it would be extremely handy if “B” quality would give +10 modifier for example, while “C” would give +5. That would be a more accurate way and also the FP curve would have the similar shape for all types of guns, gradually decreasing at longer ranges. Unfortunately, we do not have this luxury as its not part of the engine. |
Author: | Bill Peters [ Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:55 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: H&R comment - national artillery variations |
But that is NOT what the morale grade means guys. It has to do with the steadfastness of the artillerymen to hold their posts. Again, you guys are trying to use something in the game to model an expected outcome for which it was never intended. I simply cannot understand how a 1 increase for one nation/range of a gun type is a huge deal. What a classic waste of time. Sorry John Corbin ... the comments here can be responded to. I am not using insulting remarks. If we cannot respond to this kind of thing then you might as well close down the forum. |
Author: | John Corbin [ Sat Jan 08, 2011 11:17 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: H&R comment - national artillery variations |
Bill Peters wrote: But that is NOT what the morale grade means guys. It has to do with the steadfastness of the artillerymen to hold their posts. Again, you guys are trying to use something in the game to model an expected outcome for which it was never intended. I simply cannot understand how a 1 increase for one nation/range of a gun type is a huge deal. What a classic waste of time. Sorry John Corbin ... the comments here can be responded to. I am not using insulting remarks. If we cannot respond to this kind of thing then you might as well close down the forum. So long as the discussion is friendly, no need to apologze Bill. The system mods being discussed are not going to be all things to all people, but it is a very interesting discussion non the less. |
Author: | Bill Peters [ Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:50 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: H&R comment - national artillery variations |
The apologies are all yours John for never getting on people that chew on my ass. |
Author: | Colin Knox [ Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:14 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: H&R comment - national artillery variations |
Hey Bill you know I am an active supporter of the work you do, however I think you a being a bit over sensitive here. We all respect you and the stuff you do but that does not preclude others generating rationales and thoughts. Anton also posted a very positive comment under my 'Bill is a legend' post. I have not seen in the posts any hard chewing ![]() Remember 'what more is history but a fable agreed upon' I have also decided I don't like the low morales but in the end the Russian guys have done some amazing research and thorough work. But like all scholarly stuff the debate can be intense. But in the end its not a personal thing. I my professional career we encourage disagreement as competition breeds efficiency. Helga a cuppa for my good friend Bill please Salute! |
Author: | Bill Peters [ Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:42 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: H&R comment - national artillery variations |
The comment about the bores heating up was a worthy one. Probably one of the better arguments I have heard so far for the values being closer. But the main goal of the team I thought was to bring in values that tended to be more historical. If anything blending them together just makes for the troops to all fire the same. Which they didn't. (Colin: actually my comment is for all the times someone laid on my ass and John never said a word - I take it that he is just laying for me which frankly doesn't sound very unbiased as a Moderator) I value the comments made by the team in many areas. This one I cannot buy into. But I understand where you are coming from. If you like these values, hey use them. The problem with mods is that few folks use them. Most go with the standard files found in the updates. |
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