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| Rule Clarification for M of E and SON Fall 2011 https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11754 |
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| Author: | Brucebear [ Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:55 am ] |
| Post subject: | Rule Clarification for M of E and SON Fall 2011 |
How are overruns by Cavalry assessed, for example : 1) Cavalry charge less then 100 skirmishers and fail to overrun, this constitutes start of the embedded melee phase? 2) Cavalry charge more than 100 skirmishers and overrun, this is not part of the embedded melee phase and units can move through the gap? Opinions please |
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| Author: | Andy Moss [ Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:56 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rule Clarification for M of E and SON Fall 2011 |
Interesting. Since you can melee skirmishers with infantry during the movement phase I don't see why you can't with cavalry as well, costly as that may be to the attacker. |
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| Author: | MCJones1810 [ Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:00 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rule Clarification for M of E and SON Fall 2011 |
Here is my interpretation, Bruce, but I am always open to better ideas from wiser minds than mine. Using the Embedded Melee Rule, cavalry can conduct up to two actions prior to the start of the Embedded Melee Phase. They can conduct one melee and make their first movement of breakthrough. Cavalry may also overrun skirmishers, in any number, prior to the conduct of their first melee attack. The melee of skirmishers numbering less than 100 applies to actions that can be conducted by infantry at any time during the turn. In your specific example, let's say that you have four cavalry charges you wish to make prior to the start of the Embedded Melee Phase. In your first two charges, you overrun some scattered skirmishers, collect a few supply wagons and remand a couple of ememy leaders to the gulag. You also conduct a first melee and the first movement of breakthrough, which could also have been a melee. Filled with the confidence of success, you now launch your third charge with the intention of overruning 150 skirmishers standing adjacent to the hex in which you wish to conduct your first melee with these fine horsemen. Unfortunately, instead of throwing themselves prostrate to the ground, or fleeing in terror from your slashing sabres, these brave skirmishers (let's call them Hanoverian Field Jagers just to pick a unit entirely at random of course), thumb their noses at your terrifying display of equestrian power and stop your cavalrymen dead in their tracks before they reach their intended objective. The cavalry unit in question may now make its initial melee attack on the impudent skirmishers and a followup on its intended target or it may stop and wait until the charge of the fourth cavalry unit is completed, after which, the infantry units already in place may make their melee attacks in the Embedded Melee Phase. Once the infantry attacks are completed, the cavalry may then make their third and fourth attacks or breakthrough movements as applicable. This ends the Embedded Melee Phase and no additional melee attacks may be conducted in this turn. You now move any units that have not previously acted through the gaps you have thus created and secure the ground you have so violently gained. Does that answer your question? |
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| Author: | Brucebear [ Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rule Clarification for M of E and SON Fall 2011 |
Thanks Mark. Thats very helpful. Basically if skirmishers less than 100 you can charge overrun or melee if your overrun fails at any point in the move. If you charge 100 plus skirmishers you have started the melee phase so cant exploit the gap with another unit ( perhaps infantry or more charging cavalry) if you succesfully overrun until the whole embedded melee sequence is completed 
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| Author: | MCJones1810 [ Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:40 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rule Clarification for M of E and SON Fall 2011 |
No, the Embedded Melee Phase does not start until you make your first melee with your infantry. A cavalry unit can charge and overrun anything, in any number, prior to the start of the Embedded Melee Phase. Example: The French Vielle Garde Grenadiers a Cheval charge with 1,000 horsemen. They overrun seven hexes containing 150 enemy skirmishers each. They then melee 500 infantry who are caught in Disorder, scattering them into oblivion, they then take one breakthrough move towards Wellington who is sitting alone, on his horse, two hexes away. Now they stop and the next cavalry unit gets to execute its charge movement, melee and a breakthrough. Etc, etc, etc until all cavalry have charged, meleed and completed their first breakthrough movement. Then the Embedded Melee Phase starts and you may execute any melees you have with your infantry. The important thing here is that your infantry must be in position to execute their melees before the first cavalry charge is executed. Once the first horseman breaks into a galloping charge, there is no other movement other than cavalry charge movement and breakthrough until all melees have been concluded. Once the infantry have completed their melees, the cavalry that charged can take the last two movements of their breakthrough, sweeping Wellington from his horse and changing the entire course of human history. After all that excitement has ended, any units that have not previously moved, fired or meleed can move up to the limits of their movement points through any gaps that have been created by the carnage in the preceding Embedded Melee Phase. Once all of this movement is complete, the player's turn is over and the file is advanced and sent to your opponent. In essence, it is still possible to use a series of seperate cavalry attacks to pry open an enemy position to create a breach that can be solidified by following infantry formations. It is not, however, possible to use your infantry in blitz fashion to create such a breach. All right all you Grognards out there, tell me if I am wrong or missed anything important here. |
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| Author: | Sir Muddy [ Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rule Clarification for M of E and SON Fall 2011 |
This is easy... The rule states that you can melee skirmishers anytime if they number less than 100. The failed charge does not negate this rule. Infantry can melee them at any time prior to start of embedded melee and so can cavalry. If skirmishers number more than 100 then they are subject to embedded melee rule. Another cavalry unit could try to overrun them again. And then troops could move through. |
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| Author: | MCJones1810 [ Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rule Clarification for M of E and SON Fall 2011 |
Oh sure, easy for him, he's a Field Marshall.  I think what Sir Muddy said is also in line with what I was saying. 
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| Author: | Jeff Bardon [ Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rule Clarification for M of E and SON Fall 2011 |
Got it, run over Hanoverian jagers at every opportunity. I think Sir Muddy has stated it very well, and most succinctly. After all, if one thinks of a line of unsupported skirmishers in the open, it really isn't a melee to run them down. A charge, yes, but the melee does not occur until later when the cavalry strikes a formed unit or has to fight across an obstacle like a stream. Mark, I do want to make sure I understand you correctly, are you saying that successive cavalry charges are permitted as the embedded melee does not start until an infantry unit launches an attack? I thought all charges had to be launched and once the first cavalry unit , or infantry, initiates a melee, then that's it, no more charges to set-up melees. |
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| Author: | MCJones1810 [ Tue Nov 22, 2011 8:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rule Clarification for M of E and SON Fall 2011 |
No, no. I stated it incorrectly. You statement is the correct one. All charges must be performed before the melees begin, just like we were doing in our Waterloo-Wavre game. Sorry for the confusion and I am very glad you corrected my error before the tournament begins. That is actually the very reason I requested that you more experienced officers check me on this point. I really appreciate your doing exactly that. We need to make sure that everyone understands the tournament rules of engagement on the front end so that we can minimize the issues that may arise during play. Thank you, Jeff. Very much appreciated. Sir Muddy, the question remains as to whether you will take the field with us in this most dangerous of endeavors. I, for one, sincerely hope that you may. |
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| Author: | Brucebear [ Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:06 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rule Clarification for M of E and SON Fall 2011 |
Sorry Guys I think I am just being dense  Ok forget all skirmishers less than 100 they are irrelevant But for example my 200 cavalry charge a 150 skirmishers with a view to over running them, but on contact they dont. So if I wish to melee with the cavalry does that start the embedded phase? If this were to happen I assume I can keep moving formed infantry into position for melee as long as, after the initial melee they continue through to the last consecutively. |
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| Author: | MCJones1810 [ Wed Nov 23, 2011 11:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rule Clarification for M of E and SON Fall 2011 |
You make all of your overruns and movements to position for melees before any of your melees begin. Cavalry can only perform its initial melee and one hex of breakthrough before you conduct your infantry melees. Once the infantry melees are complete, cavalry can perform its last two breakthrough moves. After you conclude all of your melees and cavarly breakthrough movements, then you may move all units that have movement points remaining. |
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| Author: | Brucebear [ Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rule Clarification for M of E and SON Fall 2011 |
Thanks Mark Got it now, interesting discussion 
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| Author: | Bill Peters [ Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rule Clarification for M of E and SON Fall 2011 |
Sir Muddy wrote: This is easy... HAHAHA!!! EASY! You guys must enjoy mental anguish. No thanks. I will enjoy just playing with 10 min. moves and using common sense in play. This kind of "memory test" I do not need. Its why I only played Embedded Melee once (with Bill Peterson) and just dropped it. Way too much stuff to remember. 
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| Author: | MCJones1810 [ Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rule Clarification for M of E and SON Fall 2011 |
Actually for the tournament, Embedded Melee is optional. The players can choose to use No Melee eliminations and forgo the EM sequence altogether. They may also use both if they so choose. I have only played a few turns of EM myself against Jeff Bardon. It really is pretty simple once you see it done. It is in the consolidation movement that follows the EM that the true devilry lies. 
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| Author: | Antony Barlow [ Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Rule Clarification for M of E and SON Fall 2011 |
I usually play with a simple interpretation of the embedded melee rule, as follows: Phase 1. Move/fire, conduct initial cavalry charges, overrun skirmishers/wagons/leaders, set up your melees. Phase 2. Do all melees and cavalry melees/continuation melees Phase 3. Move/fire any units still able to do so but no more melees allowed. Exception: Skirmishers (of any number), lone leaders and wagons can be meleed any time during the turn I also play with the no melee elimination rule, and prefer 10 minute turns. Against most opponents of a like mind this achieves reasonable outcomes without too much mental fatigue. |
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