Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)
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Defensive Fire is too weak!!!
https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12076		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Sir Muddy [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Defensive Fire is too weak!!!
Ok. That's all I have to say. One major flaw in the engine is the algorithm for defensive fire. With automatic defensive fire ON, the defender should fire full strength every time the unit fires. PERIOD. Its not necessary to change the probability of defensive fire, but full strength fire and full fire prior to melee 100% of the time is necessary to alter the overwhelming advantage the attacker has in all HPS titles.

Nuff said.
Author:  Al Amos [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defensive Fire is too weak!!!
Agree 100%. Even when I was French. ;-)
Author:  Colin Knox [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defensive Fire is too weak!!!
I agree Sir Muddy although the detail would need to be debated. It's especially relevant when you have lower morales. It pretty much requires you to attack no matter what as units that lose a melee automatically take a morale test. Resulting in 'rout city' if you have a bunch of low quality units in the front line. Where is fire is only a probability of taking a test.

For example hit a D unit in a melee defeat it and move up some skirmishers firing into flanks and it becomes a F unit. Fire at a few of the surrounding units in the same way and you get plenty of routs.

I have played allieds in a good number of the titles and also am playing Leipzig where the French have low morales. The intent is realism but actually it lessens it as the attack is essential. Also it's madness to put your D or lower quality units in the front line. Their best use is an attack.

Overall under the current game structure attack is essential.
Author:  John Corbin [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defensive Fire is too weak!!!
Anyone contacted HPS about this?
Author:  Al Amos [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:01 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defensive Fire is too weak!!!
hehehe.... you made a funny, John.
Author:  Colin Knox [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 5:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defensive Fire is too weak!!!
I don't see much interest in changing things as fundamental as this at HPS. I actually think a series of changes need to be made but not this in its own right but in the end I am happy to just suck it up as it stands. :mrgreen:
Author:  Bill Peters [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defensive Fire is too weak!!!
Is it? I just blew Cliff's French columns off the map in our SON R1 game. I love those British lines! :mrgreen:

John got an email from a customer not long back. Presto we ended up with cavalry that could be attacked in the closed terrain. So its NOT like he will not listen and make a change.

I was able to get him to take another shot at removing the Temp files. Presto - you don't have them anymore.

Here is what he did to the engine during the design of Leipzig. Still staggers my mind that he would work that much on an old program:

Game Engine Updates/Corrections for Campaign Leipzig:

4-24-09 - added in ability to use lowercase letters for weapons in PDT/Weapon files

5-22-09 - added in ability to have command ranges for Corps, Wing and Army commanders

6-18-09 - Fire Mod was added into the Weather lines of the PDT file

7-17-09 - Bridge movement value added to end of PDT file - if 0 use Path cost

9-29-09 - Spanish Nation type is now Swedish (For 1813-14 games only)

6-11-10 - 3 rank line change - they fire at 75 percent of value unless in Extended Line

8-2-10 - Skirmishers detached from a unit in square formation now have full MPs on the same turn

8-10-10 - Withdraw feature added to the Release dialog for the Units menu in the Scenario Editor

8-17-10 - North Mapedge 3D view issue corrected for high elevations

9-4-10 - Emplaced Guns for OBs added

9-13-10 - South Mapedge 3D view issue corrected for high elevations

9-14-10 - No Bayonets capability added to PDT file

1-16-11 - Pioneers can now deploy skirmishers

2-17-11 - Opportunity fire will no longer target wagons

3-26-11 - Correct facing issue for Pioneer skirmishers when attempting to perform bridge repair

6-2-11 - Supply Wagons no longer can move on the same turn after being captured

6-9-11 - Exit hexes now have the NATION label

6-11-11 - #1. Total strengths for Allied side now displays in Info - Strength Dialog for Editor and Engine - #2. PBEM temp files now are deleted once the program closes.

7-26-11 - Nations no longer will stack with each other during routs or retreats

9-24-11 - Bridge LOS fix - non-wagons, non-skirmishers and non-routed units can now view bridge strength

10-4-11 - Corrected issue with "r" (Rockets) weapon type

10-23-11 - Unit facing no longer applies to skirmishers for any reason (fire & melee defense or bridge repair for Pioneer-skirmishers) - 3D graphics will still show them facing a certain direction but this is N/A as far as the program is concerned.

Check the dates - there is rarely a gap of three months where he was not working on the game engine. Add in that he has 60 titles out and is always doing something with them too.

I will tell you this Al Amos - John never did this much for a title I worked on before. So much for the idea that the series is dead or that he doesn't listen.

Ken's comments are worth him sending Rich something to pass on to John. Phrase is respectfully and do not rant when you express yourself. Its better to just email John via Rich than rant here. Always works out better in the end.

But it is the customer's prerogative in the end.

Hey Ken, grumble enough and they will induct you into the Old Guard!
Author:  Al Amos [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defensive Fire is too weak!!!
You made a funny, Bill.
Author:  Colin Knox [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defensive Fire is too weak!!!
Hey Bill. I should have added Leipzig and Austerlitz are big improvments on the old titles for heaps of reasons. After I finish Waterloo with Muddy I doubt I will play the early generation stuff again. Not because I don't love it just because the new stuff is so good.

It would be great to see Waterloo updated with all of the fixes from Leipzig though.

No real complaints from me I think you and John/Rich are doing a fantastic job and I did not mean to sound negative as I know what its like to be criticised on big projects from the outside.

Kind regards
Colin
Author:  Bill Peters [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defensive Fire is too weak!!!
These games are fun to design. I have just divested myself of admin work in clubs. I did this some time back and presto: Austerlitz was the result. I had more time to focus on design and that is where I am at my best.

I took up riding the bike path here in town. It is very nice and gets me off of the PC. Eventually I am going to completely quit using a PC except for things like travel arrangements and banking.

When I ride the bike I think of nothing but the surroundings. The nice Boise River and so on. BSU is along the way and I can ride over to get a bite to eat.

I got rid of my car some time back. I do not need a car. I just take the bus. And with the price of gas going up I do not miss it.

I downgraded my licence from Class B (Bus, large vehicle) to just a Class C. The happiest day of my life. i drove busses for over 20 years. Never really wanted to. Just did it because they needed someone to do it. Drove for seven youth camps. It was a blast.

We have a lovely state and I fully intend on getting out more this Spring and Summer. Was watching Outdoor Idaho last night and we sure have some lovely river land. And funny enough I probably have driven by a potato field here but do not know what they look like. I keep on looking for a farmer that looks like Ernie Sands but I never see him. :mrgreen:

In short, today, I just decided, forget it. This club stuff isn't worth it. I like the guys that are dedicated, who will shell out some bucks (hey even a buck) to help them continue but I will not kill myself for the clubs or the games either. Mandatory bike ride to get off of the PC coming tomorrow rain or shine. What a difference it makes. Been working for about three straight years solid most days about 12-14 hours at the PC trying to make ends meet.

So for me if D fire is fixed. Great. If not ... well its just time to hit the bike trail again. Life is too short to worry about this crap.
Author:  Colin Knox [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 7:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defensive Fire is too weak!!!
Yes I agree Bill. I ride regularly as well and use it for problem solving time on complex client projects (I operate my own marketing company). New Zealand is a bit of an outdoor paradise for training and exercise I ski/hike/ride regularly much better than a screen. :mrgreen:

I agree to much PC time is toxic. I cut my games back to just 2 and generally 1 if possible. I don't know how you do all those hours in front of PC's although I must do a good few to run my company.

regards
Colin
Author:  John Corbin [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 8:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defensive Fire is too weak!!!
My poor vision makes driving in possible both car an bike.

I walk to and from work daily, regardless of weather. About 45 minutes each way.

The walk to work wakes me up, gets the blood moving and gets me to be creative.

The walk home is a great way to un-wind and problem solving gets in their too.

I am a math nut and I find solving math problems fun to
Author:  dalelast [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defensive Fire is too weak!!!
Bought a bike myself 3 years ago cus I needed to get more exercise. Great investment. Excellent way to get away from it all. Also like hiking in the Adirondack mountains here in upstate NY.
Author:  Sir Muddy [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 9:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defensive Fire is too weak!!!
Funny, I went for a 4 mile walk with the dog in the big woods today and thought about defensive fire and came home and posted the comment. You're right, getting outside clears the mind. :wink:
Author:  Bill Peters [ Mon Feb 20, 2012 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Defensive Fire is too weak!!!
Riding in New Zealand must be nice. Some day I want to ride the C&O towpath. The ones in England look nice too. Was just checking out the canals there last week. Am learning that they have a national pathway system. I wish that the US had that.

If I catch myself thinking of anything other than the outdoors I remind myself that my reason for being outside is to think outside. Not inside. Will give you a fresh perspective on everything.
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