Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)
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At what point is surrender acceptable?
https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13618		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  Tony Barrett [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  At what point is surrender acceptable?
Greetings good Sirs and Frenchmen,

This is a question regarding good manners but would be interested in the opinion of French players aswell ;-)

Sometimes, okay in my case a lot of the time, I realise before even half way through a scenario that I have made so many mistakes that there is no way to recover or even turn a major defeat into a minor one.

Two of my current games give an insight to the question one here and one on Blitz. Playing the French side at Shervadino I am currently loosing but in a position to take and hold the redoubt so the victory points will turn around the result. There is no question of surrendering because I am currently loosing. However on this site in Borodino not only am I loosing but because of bad planning on my part and good tactics on his all I am looking at is a bloodbath.

I am aware that surrendering early limits the points that the victor gains from the victory so it could be deemed ungentlemanly to surrender early but how much must I endure for the sake of good manners?
Author:  Todd Schmidgall [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 12:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: At what point is surrender acceptable?
Salute!

A very good question to ask, sir.

First of all, the only points that you will be denying your opponent are those awarded for turns played.

He will still gain the VPs for recording a Minor or Major Victory.

If you are being overwhelmed, your forces in utter disarray, and the game has become a general slaughter I would not expect anyone to simply endure for the sake of points for turns played.

If one is losing a game, but the situation is not a bloodbath, so to speak, in other words, if there are some things that you may yet be able to learn by continuing play - such as how to try and recover and re-organize your forces, to re-establish a battle line while under enemy pressure, etc, all of this may prove of value to you in future games.

You may also be able to learn and improve one's own play by studying the tactics and strategy of your opponent.

The only time I would consider surrender a negative is if one does so at the first sign of distress, and very, very early in the game.

If you have made the noble effort and fallen short for whatever reason, I would not expect one to simply continue the game which is become a slaughter, for that can only have a negative effect upon your own psyche, and can surely be no real fun for your opponent either.

When I play the games I try to have the attitude that when all is said and done I hope that my opponent and I have both learned something and improved our skills upon the battle maps.

I may not offer advice during the course of the play - but I am always glad to discuss matters at the conclusion of the game...

Regards,
Author:  Ed Blackburn [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 1:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: At what point is surrender acceptable?
I have found most players to be very reasonable with no wish to humilate an opponent...I would say let your opponent know when the game has ceased to be fun for you and see what he has to say. :D

On the flip side be careful about surrendering to soon, you would be surprised what can sometimes happen if you hang in there.
Author:  Richard Bradshaw [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: At what point is surrender acceptable?
As an officer and a gentleman, I often offer my esteemed opponents, and the French ones too, a chance to surrender to me early in the game before anyone has to get hurt and uniforms soiled. No one has accepted which I take to be very bad manners.
Author:  Sir Muddy [ Sun Dec 01, 2013 8:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: At what point is surrender acceptable?
Sir:

This is an interesting question and you are not the first to raise the issue. Allow me to refer you to an article from one of our Newsletters (before the printing presses were destroyed). The title of the article is "Real Victory : Losing with Honor" and it was penned by Brigadier General Sir Chris Wattie, Royal Horse Guard Blues, British Army (ret.). The message is that its not about winning or losing or scoring points. I think you'll enjoy Sir Wattie's remarks.

http://www.wargame.ch/wc/nwc/newsletter ... rearticles
Author:  Ernie Sands [ Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:20 am ]
Post subject:  Re: At what point is surrender acceptable?
[quote="Sir Muddy"]Sir:

This is an interesting question and you are not the first to raise the issue. Allow me to refer you to an article from one of our Newsletters (before the printing presses were destroyed). The title of the article is "Real Victory : Losing with Honor" and it was penned by Brigadier General Sir Chris Wattie, Royal Horse Guard Blues, British Army (ret.). The message is that its not about winning or losing or scoring points. I think you'll enjoy Sir Wattie's remarks.

http://www.wargame.ch/wc/nwc/newsletter ... rearticles[/quote]

An excellent article AND a very good refresher. It is still pertinent after almost 14 years.

I like to play games out. I like to see just how my plans work, even in a losing situation; how my changed plans have worked.

You learn as much by losing as you do by winning.

I rarely relinquish my sword, but will always graciously accept one (also rarely).
Author:  Tony Barrett [ Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:30 am ]
Post subject:  Re: At what point is surrender acceptable?
Sirs,

Valuable answers all.

To reassure future and present opponents, I do, when defeat is obvious, try to look for a part of the battle that I can use to experiment with before giving up.

However it is good to know that early surrender is acceptable.

The article was interesting.

At least I am learning what doesn't work ;-)


Regards.
Author:  MCJones1810 [ Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: At what point is surrender acceptable?
When losing, I always stay the course until my opponent pushes me into a Major Defeat and I see no hope of recovery. At that point, I honorably, and publically (in the Rhine Tavern) offer him my sword. In the case of Colin Knox, I offered him my epaulettes as well. OK, so it was actually only the one epaulette as that was all I had left. A dang, French sharpshooter had shot the other one off my coat during the engagment. :roll: :o :shock:

When winning, I always offer my opponent the chance to surrender as soon as I push him into a Major Defeat. Normally, the battle is decided at this point anyway. If he chooses to continue, that is fine. I wiil certainly continue to play as long as he thinks there is some chance for him to improve upon the result. What I absolutely do not ever want to do is kick a man when he is done. I prefer to extend a hand and help him back on his feet. :) :D :P
Author:  Aloysius Kling Sr [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: At what point is surrender acceptable?
General Jones,
I agree with what you have stated, but do you have to giggle when you are helping one back on his feet!
Author:  MCJones1810 [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: At what point is surrender acceptable?
I make a public spectacle of both my defeats and my victories. In all honesty, I actually started doing that when I was appointed the command of the Hanoverian Brigade. I did this to associate my victories with the Hanoverians. It was an intentional measure to instill some pride in a unit that many considered to be inferior. Everyone wants to command a Highland unit, or the 95th Rifles, or the Scot's Greys as if the unit itself would imbue them with respect. I took a different approach. I sought to transform a unit of which no one wanted to join into an elite organization that earned the respect of others. I think I suceeded in that endeavour. Everyone in our club now knows of the Hanoverians, and only the most rash officers would challenge them out of hand. For camaraderie and unity, I would put my Hanoverians up against any unit in any army of this club. It was nothing like that when I was first commissioned as an Ensign in the Feld Jager company. I am proud of them, and what they have achieved.

Now how about another round of Jager, Marechal Kling. It is sure to put some color in your cheeks.
Author:  Tony Barrett [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: At what point is surrender acceptable?
Exhaulted Sirs <Salute>

Excuse my ignorance but as a member of the KGL am I Hanoverian? Is that why only Marchels of France agree to fight me?

Please spread the word not all Hanoverian's are super hero's - I really would like to fight someone who is inexperienced. :-)

It's a good job I come from a wealth family who can keep supplying me with swords. :-0

<salute>
Author:  MCJones1810 [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: At what point is surrender acceptable?
You are indeed a Hanoverian, Lt. Barrett. Although not specifically belonging to the Hanoverian Brigade, the Parisian Mob does seem to fear officers who wear red coats and speak fluent German. I think your dilemma in opponents stems from the fact, or so I am told, that all new French recruits are given a baton and title immediately upon graduation from the brothel they refer to as L'Ecole Militaire. I honestly don't think they have any lower ranks.

Please join me for a shot or two, Lieutenant. We are not really superheros, but there is no reason to encourage our croissant eating adversaries to think anything different.
Author:  clifton seeney [ Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: At what point is surrender acceptable?
That is why I love the Table top rule of 70% Losses to the French and 60% Allied game done!
Author:  clifton seeney [ Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: At what point is surrender acceptable?
All so you can not win a battle if all or most of your ME's are disordered!
Author:  Colin Knox [ Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: At what point is surrender acceptable?
The best time to surrender if you are part of the coalition of the unwilling is when a man in a grey greatcoat on a white horse appears. Simple as that.
Not complicated.
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