Even 75 horesemen are worth only 15 VPs at most, Cliff. And to top that, you have Prussian cavalry which everyone, except the misguided French, knows are worth ten times their number of the 'Pony Riders of the Parisian Mob'.
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| Videttes and scouts https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13619 |
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| Author: | clifton seeney [ Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Videttes and scouts |
There is a need to include these units in all games I have lost Cav due to a like of Videttes in Cav Units. |
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| Author: | David Guegan [ Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Videttes and scouts |
With the new games you can always detach a cavalry platoon from the company... |
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| Author: | clifton seeney [ Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Videttes and scouts |
58-75 men don't stand a chance when they bump into larger UNITS AND you end up losing 75 point or more. We need smaller units with lest points if lost ! |
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| Author: | MCJones1810 [ Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Videttes and scouts |
Even 75 horesemen are worth only 15 VPs at most, Cliff. And to top that, you have Prussian cavalry which everyone, except the misguided French, knows are worth ten times their number of the 'Pony Riders of the Parisian Mob'.
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| Author: | clifton seeney [ Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:37 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Videttes and scouts |
I beg to differ when you play D cav vs A and B those points mount up esp when you use them D's to scout! |
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| Author: | MCJones1810 [ Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:59 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Videttes and scouts |
I do not understand, Cliff. Cavalry is generally worth only 5 VPs for every 25 men lost. Admittedly this may vary a bit depending on the game, but there is never a case when 75 cavalry loses are worth 75 VPs. One very great injustice in my opinion is that 25 of my E Morale Cumberland Hussars are worth the same number of Victory Points as 25 A+++ Morale Grenadiers a Cheval. That is wrong on so many levels, but something with which I have learned to live (only because I have to really). |
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| Author: | clifton seeney [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:39 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Videttes and scouts |
That's what I am talking about E and D value is the same as a A+ Cav that is crazy! I ran a Regt of A++ into the woods now come on they should be able to stand against the best I THROW AT THEM. |
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| Author: | Ernie Sands [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Videttes and scouts |
The purpose of scouting is information and even though you lost X number of cavalry, you found the enemy units. They did their job. |
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| Author: | clifton seeney [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Videttes and scouts |
Oui they did and they were killed, but their value was the same as regular Cav that is the problem their value should be less not equal to. |
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| Author: | Todd Schmidgall [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Videttes and scouts |
Salute! There seem to be two important issues being discussed here: the value in VPs for E Morale units being the same as A+++ units, and the necessity and use of scouting. As Mark pointed out the value in VPs while out of whack is what it is (unless one takes the time to modify the appropriate files in the pdf/pdt folders that can change anything within the games that one wants - I know gamers who have the time and interest to do that very thing). But, unless you have the time and interest it is what it is. Now to the second point about the necessity and proper use of scouting. Scouting is necessary if one wants to discover where your opponent is maneuvering his forces (this is more of a strategic requirement in scenarios that have very large maps and forces that are out of the LoS of your own for significant portions of the early stages of a game). Cliff references low grade cavalry vs a higher grade cavalry Regt. As those were his Prussian kavalerie vs my French cavalry in a game we are playing (see thread A Prussian Battle 1815) I feel some justification in tackling that issue as raised. Cliff said my Regt should have been able to stand up against whatever he was throwing at me. This Regt was originally some 400+ strong, and had a greater or at least equal number of units directly opposed to it. Note the use of the word directly. This Regt of cavalry was being used as a scouting force, and it discovered what appeared to be a Prussian battle Korps in the general area (don't bother to answer if that is correct or not Cliff - it is the battlefield intelligence I'm assuming my unit discovered - but it may or may not be correct - and our game is on-going). So, the fact is that this Regt's actions are based on not only the sight of enemy kavalerie in their immediate vicinity - but also the that there appears to be some 20-30,000 Prussians within striking distance of them as well. Terrain also plays a role in the tactical decision making - the presence of large forests, streams and worse from the PoV of any unit that feels it is outnumbered and being cornered - creeks without nearby crossing points - hence impassable. Here is a very important aspect to scouting which I believe many players don't always take into tactical consideration even when using units as scouts (or even during general movement of forces during play): although you can see the whole map during play -when using FoW as I'm sure nearly everyone does - you are not seeing those enemy units that are out of your LoS. You will not see such units until you literally bump into them during movement - or at the beginning of your next turn. This requires proper scouting methods to include making use of high ground offering one a view of surrounding map areas that were previously out of one's LoS before venturing into the new terrain. There is a big difference in whether one loses VPs for scouts if one uses the scouts as bumper cars - riding them around until they bump into the foe - or whether you proceed with some caution, taking note of elevation changes and occupying observation points... During the course of our play I have plenty of times observed enemy units advancing from a distance, usually along roads, and have simply established ambushes at selected points and waited for the units to march directly into the trap. This means I saw the enemy advancing during replay of the opponent's turn, and then having established my ambush, during the following turn my opponent had to continue his movement towards my own force(s). But, the opponent's unit(s) should have taken note during the replay of my turn that his own force had been sighted (highlight of visible units is key to this), and the fact that whichever unit(s) of my own that spotted his would be visible as well. I think this is a fascinating discussion concerning scouting and hope others will chime in on the subject. Regards, |
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| Author: | clifton seeney [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Videttes and scouts |
Videttes are very important players in a game and the need to have them in the front and rear where they were used is not only historic (which I was when I was a recruit in the French Cav Res) but needed. I would like to see them added to games esp large games with out the same VP points as reg Cav .Since I don't know how to change the files to reflex this I look to the people who make these games to do so. |
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| Author: | Andy Moss [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Videttes and scouts |
Indeed there are two issues here. Different quality of troops are worth the same number of points. That would require an engine change similar to REN but I don't see any engine changes as at all likely. Pity as that is one of my main bugbears too as it would prevent elite troops being used as stormtroops at the outset. Scouting is indeed essential if you don't want unpleasant surprises. Unfortunately scout units are not included. That would make the OOB huge and probably a map too. I daresay the OOB can be modified but nobody wants 1 man commando units running riot all over the map. The engine would have to be modified in order for the scouts not to behave like any other unit. And again that's not going to happen. Generally I tend to use cavalry of poor quality as scouts. And pick on small units so that the squadron strength is very low - the Prussian 100 man units are great for this as you can get 4 x 25 man units out of it. Not very costly if they are wiped out and they provide good intel before they die, with the added bonus that enemy units may spend a lot of time and effort in chasing them or screening their own army's advance. |
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| Author: | clifton seeney [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:26 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Videttes and scouts |
Monsieur de Commander makes some bon points, but like I said the Videttes die quick and cost you VP points. The need for shock troops also that is why the French have A+++ Guard as well as the English. Not to be wasted in the beginning of a battle but to win a battle. I am playing a game where as the French throw the Guard in and now they are wasted and disordered. I love playing the Prussian although they are D and E their Jagers are B and equal to some of the French Legers. The bigger the Ob is to me the better the game and large maps are more fun to me then small. Ve'l the large maps they show is you are in fact a General or just a arm chair warrior. |
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| Author: | Richard Bradshaw [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Videttes and scouts |
Is not every life worth the same? Especially on the French side, are they not all equal? Brothers? Snakes in the grass? |
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| Author: | Andy Moss [ Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:49 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Videttes and scouts |
All men are equal. But some are more equal than others. Thus the Hanoverians and Belgians with their negative fire and melee modifyers are men -1. |
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