Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC) :: View topic - Simultaneous Membership in more than one army

There has been a discussion in the French Forum about that topic.

One officer stated that he wouldn't share any tactical information to our forum because he though it was compromised by people having what I would call Multiple Personality Syndrome or simple cheaters who maybe play against themselves to go high in the ranks without too much effort.

Some have been advocating for banning free email addresses such as gmail. All of that under the idea that it will be harder to cheat with the IP adress, etc...

By looking at the members of my corps (only) I can see that:

most of those are available for free. And this is only in my corps... And I guess all the corps and armies have about the same amount of members with free email addresses.

I have been playing to a lot of on-line games where the problem of multiple accounts has always been present and I can tell you one thing: as hard as you can try there is no way you can catch all the cheaters. But there is one thing that you will do for sure: annoy the normal non cheating players with rules and constraints.

General Todd <Salute>

"But for a club like this volume is not everything.
Indeed, we seek quality over quantity do we not? "

Indeed we do!

I am still at the stage where I want to play against new people to gain new information. I have a consistent opponent on Blitz who is at the same stage as me and we are learning from each other. I have not found such a person on NWC, yet. I play against anyone who will have me here ;-)

One day there is going to be a French Lieutenant that will rue the day that I played against some of the Greatest French senior officers on this site. :-)

Did I just use the words "greatest" and "French" in the same sentence? MEDIC ! Tranquilizers please. ;-)

2. Maintains a Registered Game in Play at All Times.

Games are an integral part of our club. Any officer that actually meets this criterion will certainly be considered ‘active’. To qualify, the game in play needs to be properly registered in the DoR System. Army, or Club, Command may request a copy of the email and game file exchanges between opponents at any time a question arises as to whether or not a game is actually in play.

I have been told that I should ask the cabinet about how many people have been caught cheating with the simultaneous membership.

I have been also told that the section about asking game turns which appear as "verification of maintaining a registered game" had in fact a hidden (since it wasn't apparent) way to fight this kind of cheating.

The sole purpose of that section is to provide our club, through the Cabinet, with a method to challenge a registration that our other security methods have identified as suspicious.

Honestly, the text as written seems clear and accurate to me. How do you think it should be reworded?

Author:	David Guegan [ Sat Jan 25, 2014 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:	Simultaneous Membership in more than one army
There has been a discussion in the French Forum about that topic. One officer stated that he wouldn't share any tactical information to our forum because he though it was compromised by people having what I would call Multiple Personality Syndrome or simple cheaters who maybe play against themselves to go high in the ranks without too much effort. Some have been advocating for banning free email addresses such as gmail. All of that under the idea that it will be harder to cheat with the IP adress, etc... By looking at the members of my corps (only) I can see that: 4 are using yahoo 2 are using gmail 2 are using hotmail 3 are using aol 1 is using outlook 1 is using gmx most of those are available for free. And this is only in my corps... And I guess all the corps and armies have about the same amount of members with free email addresses. I have been playing to a lot of on-line games where the problem of multiple accounts has always been present and I can tell you one thing: as hard as you can try there is no way you can catch all the cheaters. But there is one thing that you will do for sure: annoy the normal non cheating players with rules and constraints.

Author:	Clint Matthews [ Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:01 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Simultaneous Membership in more than one army
davidguegan wrote: There has been a discussion in the French Forum about that topic. One officer stated that he wouldn't share any tactical information to our forum because he though it was compromised by people having what I would call Multiple Personality Syndrome or simple cheaters who maybe play against themselves to go high in the ranks without too much effort. Some have been advocating for banning free email addresses such as gmail. All of that under the idea that it will be harder to cheat with the IP adress, etc... By looking at the members of my corps (only) I can see that: 4 are using yahoo 2 are using gmail 2 are using hotmail 3 are using aol 1 is using outlook 1 is using gmx most of those are available for free. And this is only in my corps... And I guess all the corps and armies have about the same amount of members with free email addresses. I have been playing to a lot of on-line games where the problem of multiple accounts has always been present and I can tell you one thing: as hard as you can try there is no way you can catch all the cheaters. But there is one thing that you will do for sure: annoy the normal non cheating players with rules and constraints. I have played and I am playing multiple games here at NWC and ACWGC without any real concerns regarding cheating. I was exposed to Gary Whalen directly over at ACWGC. If I could not use my email account to correspond with my opponents.........that would not be good.

Author:	Todd Schmidgall [ Sat Jan 25, 2014 5:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Simultaneous Membership in more than one army
Salute! Clint Matthews wrote: If I could not use my email account to correspond with my opponents.........that would not be good. Hi Clint, one thing that was previously proposed to a formerly constituted cabinet was that new recruits applying for membership in the NWC had to make their application in a specific type of email server that enables a more thorough examination of the IP address (I'm a professed Luddite, so the terminology may be garbled here, but the intent is hopefully clear). Once the recruit was shown to be an actual existing person, from that point on they would be able to use whatever email service they felt like. The proposal, while not 100% perfect (mind you, we're not talking about false claims against people - just that some folks with the technical know how, and lot's and lot's of spare time on their hands could still perhaps beat the system - but we are talking about catching many more such posers than currently so) was not adopted by the then cabinet. Bottom line, this proposal would not require any member to use a specific email service after their approved membership - just during the approval process. Regards,

Author:	Tony Barrett [ Sat Jan 25, 2014 6:47 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Simultaneous Membership in more than one army
I admit to gamesmanship (cheating) ........ in Farmville and Cityville on Facebook, both need friends to help or you can't play. You have to get real friends playing as well but it was a "quick start". So ... I obtained email addresses for 2 cats & 1 granddaughter, gave them all the date of birth 1st April and made them 21 years of age. They then signed up for Facebook and the games. The point of this confession is to show that if a sophisticated computer literate organisation can be fooled then (all due respect to our admin, but) we probably don't stand a chance of weeding out multiple identities. So they make General by winning against their alter ego, so what. It will not affect those of us that are playing against each other. They will not get the thrill of the challenge. The real problem "cheaters" are those that presumably save game, take a combat action and if it is not a favorable result re load game. Or however else they do it. These would not be caught by insisting on a paid for email? I must confess I probably would not notice if my opponent was doing this but I am sure those with more experience would notice it. We don't want either type in the club but the multiple identity cheater is not going to impact on us really. The other type does and those are the ones we need to root out. I am guessing here that our army commanders would notice someone with a fantastic history of results in their team? They then could speak to someone in the opposing army who would arrange a challenge that could be scrutinized for any foul play. This probably happens already. Let us not put up barriers to recruitment just to prevent something that does not really affect our games. LOL - you are welcome to check my results to see if perhaps I am cheating here, of course I could be taking a bribe to lose all my games - LOL

Author:	Ernie Sands [ Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Simultaneous Membership in more than one army
I think there are isolated cases of dual armies and devious characters that want to disrupt things. Most of the time, we are able to figure them out and bar them, but they could/might be back. There seems to be a particular type of individual that does this and they almost always end up sending dubious emails to opponents; sometimes they forget "WHO" they are portraying and where they are. As mentioned, Whalen is a good example of a BAD idea. Club leadership is well aware that these things happen and they act aggressively and thoroughly to weed them out and get them identified. Actually, all 3 sister clubs, AGWGC, CCC and the NWC, all work together when one of these dual personalities pops up in one club. But, when you get down to the heart of the matter, WHO CARES!! Seriously. It is not good for the membership to get overly worried about cheaters, whether of the multiple identities or actual cheating. It might happen and we should all be aware that it might happen, but we also should no be paranoid about it. (NOT that anyone seems paranoid ) If you think there is actually a dual personality person around, bring it up to your chain of command and it can be looked into. So, my best advice is to be aware, but not wary; play your games with confidence. Remember that the SCORE differential is minimal and getting advances in rank are nice, but I do not think any of us take that all to seriously.

Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC) https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/

Simultaneous Membership in more than one army https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13841	Page 1 of 3

Author:	Todd Schmidgall [ Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:10 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Simultaneous Membership in more than one army
Salute! Tony, that was a very entertaining post! I was enjoyed it so much that when I went to log in to make this reply I started typing That was... instead of my user name... Thank you for the humor! I would say though (and again, being a Luddite I could well be wrong here) that the Facebook games, etc, that you mention probably don't care if you are cheating by fabricating false accounts. They are (?) a business model based on numbers - they want volume - period... To show their advertisers, to get money to keep themselves going, and show a prospective investor or buyer this volume - and then get a handsome payday. No? But for a club like this volume is not everything. Indeed, we seek quality over quantity do we not? This will commonly portray itself in the number of games that we play. Often it seems when a new member joins the club it is like being a child again at Christmas and we are opening up all the presents we have - we are so excited to be playing against real live opponents compared to the game engine AI that we overload ourselves... Eventually this comes to affect our ability to play the games both in a timely manner, and can affect the quality of our play. Eventually we find the average number of games we individually can handle, in the sense of enjoyment and quality of play. And as we explore the membership available to play we often find ourselves playing those we enjoy the most over and over again. I certainly do - and so I will also make a point of playing someone new every so often (maneuver games with fellow LGA officers is wonderful for this as well). The motivating factors for my involvement in the club are two: pleasure of the gaming and meeting the people who enjoy them as well. Regards,

Author:	Tony Barrett [ Sat Jan 25, 2014 7:31 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Simultaneous Membership in more than one army
General Todd <Salute> "But for a club like this volume is not everything. Indeed, we seek quality over quantity do we not? " Indeed we do! I am still at the stage where I want to play against new people to gain new information. I have a consistent opponent on Blitz who is at the same stage as me and we are learning from each other. I have not found such a person on NWC, yet. I play against anyone who will have me here One day there is going to be a French Lieutenant that will rue the day that I played against some of the Greatest French senior officers on this site. Did I just use the words "greatest" and "French" in the same sentence? MEDIC ! Tranquilizers please.

Author:	Clint Matthews [ Sat Jan 25, 2014 10:30 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Simultaneous Membership in more than one army
Tony Barrett wrote: General Todd <Salute> "But for a club like this volume is not everything. Indeed, we seek quality over quantity do we not? " Indeed we do! I am still at the stage where I want to play against new people to gain new information. I have a consistent opponent on Blitz who is at the same stage as me and we are learning from each other. I have not found such a person on NWC, yet. I play against anyone who will have me here One day there is going to be a French Lieutenant that will rue the day that I played against some of the Greatest French senior officers on this site. Did I just use the words "greatest" and "French" in the same sentence? MEDIC ! Tranquilizers please. Hello Tony, I am also looking to play opponents at the same stage as I, here at NWC. I have played or I am playing a hand full of games. I have several of the games. Auterlitz, Jena, Russia, Leipzig, Eckmuhl and Waterloo. If you are interested in playing......drop me a line at dukemat@yahoo.com I am good for 4 or 5 turns a week.

Author:	clifton seeney [ Sun Jan 26, 2014 12:10 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Simultaneous Membership in more than one army
Monsieur Gary's problem was not cheating but confusion, he would play till he knew he could not win and quite. He had a problem with who he wanted to be that's all I liked the guy myself, An as far as I know he never cheated the way that that young garcon was talking about. Any one can use two or more e-mail add but one day they have to play someone. Most times it's the pick this and chose that players, a true gamer plays all rules and all ways win or lose.

Author:	David Guegan [ Sun Jan 26, 2014 1:00 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Simultaneous Membership in more than one army
I have been told that I should ask the cabinet about how many people have been caught cheating with the simultaneous membership. I have been also told that the section about asking game turns which appear as "verification of maintaining a registered game" had in fact a hidden (since it wasn't apparent) way to fight this kind of cheating. Quote: 2. Maintains a Registered Game in Play at All Times. Games are an integral part of our club. Any officer that actually meets this criterion will certainly be considered ‘active’. To qualify, the game in play needs to be properly registered in the DoR System. Army, or Club, Command may request a copy of the email and game file exchanges between opponents at any time a question arises as to whether or not a game is actually in play. So please Cabinet could you give us an answer so all members can make their own mind about this and vote knowingly what it is all about?

Author:	Hakan Hen [ Sun Jan 26, 2014 3:40 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Simultaneous Membership in more than one army
Being in some napoleonic comp gaming communities other than NWC (ACWGC and CCC) ip check or email check is not a barrier to cheaters as we all know. If someone play with only specific players thats a question, if someone play with players who never post on forums thats another good question to be asked ... To be honest i was playing in lordz community and people were accepted to my clan with only after TeamSpeak confirmation. Tho i know its a very strict rule for club acceptance ?! but gives perfect results.

Author:	MCJones1810 [ Sun Jan 26, 2014 11:55 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: Simultaneous Membership in more than one army
davidguegan wrote: I have been told that I should ask the cabinet about how many people have been caught cheating with the simultaneous membership. Four or five to date. We made a public example of Gary Whalen after first giving him an opportunity to mend his ways. Some others have been handled quietly. Others bowed out on their own once they realized we were on to them. Not all have yet been eliminated. Probably not all have yet been identified either. We do not need any special restrictions to email accounts to catch them. It is true that I proposed eliminating 'untraceable' gmail accounts for registrations at one time. It is also true that there was opposition in the Cabinet to my idea. As it turned out, I did not have to press the issue. I simply figured out a way to trace the 'untraceable'. davidguegan wrote: I have been also told that the section about asking game turns which appear as "verification of maintaining a registered game" had in fact a hidden (since it wasn't apparent) way to fight this kind of cheating. The sole purpose of that section is to provide our club, through the Cabinet, with a method to challenge a registration that our other security methods have identified as suspicious. It is something that would only be used to augment our current security measures to increase our odds of positively identifying an imposter. Just the fact that this option is clearly written in our rules would serve as a detriment to people attempting to scam us. As others have stated, I would have no problem at all providing a game file, or in my case, all the detailed email exchanges with an opponent over the course of my game. I neither have multiple registrations within our club, nor do I register games that are not actually in play. It would never hurt my feelings, or offend me in any way, to comply with a request from a Club Administrator to prove I am not cheating our system. There was a fellow who used an alter ego to advance himself into the Guard of one of our armies. After accomplishing this goal, he started reversing his fortunes in an attempt to advance his other personae into the Guard of an opposing army. Once he realized that we were onto him, he and his alter egos quietly disappeared, and the club was never even aware this occured. That is our preference. To be vigilant on your behalf, so that you can play games without worrying about such things. Now, I have heard it asked "Who Cares?" I care, that's who. I think a Guard's commission is an honor that is earned, and anyone who acts in the aforementioned manner is compromising the honor of those who actually deserved it. I think that people who perpetrate these acts should be caught, and summarily thrown out on thier heads. It takes a lot of work on the part of the Club Administration, but no work at all on the part of the members themselves. We guard the gates, so that you may play the games. We work for you.

Author:	David Guegan [ Mon Jan 27, 2014 12:32 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Simultaneous Membership in more than one army
MCJones1810 wrote: The sole purpose of that section is to provide our club, through the Cabinet, with a method to challenge a registration that our other security methods have identified as suspicious. Then my question is the following: why not put that part clearly in the rules instead of just saying that the cabinet could ask for the file to verify game activity without giving the true reason? As for myself, I have only one registration to one army and it has been the same for 14 years now.

Author:	MCJones1810 [ Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:04 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Simultaneous Membership in more than one army
Honestly, the text as written seems clear and accurate to me. How do you think it should be reworded?

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Author:	David Guegan [ Mon Jan 27, 2014 10:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: Simultaneous Membership in more than one army
MCJones1810 wrote: Honestly, the text as written seems clear and accurate to me. How do you think it should be reworded? By adding the intent instead of hiding it under the status of "Active" membership. It seems to me to be obvious. But since I guess most of the members don't have a problem with false intents I guess it will be approved and you won't have to change anything. When I joined this club I joined because even with the structure (armies) we had we were free to do whatever we wanted as long as we were gentlemen. Some people from time to time where expelled or left because they didn't act accordingly. Now it seems that everybody is suspicious to the point that some officers in the French Forum don't want to participate to discussions about tactics because we could have a cheater around and I don't like that feeling.