Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)
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More Petty Politics
https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13905		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Jeff Bardon [ Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:04 am ]
Post subject:  More Petty Politics
"Was not reinstated" :? :roll: :?:

I'd love to hear an actual justification for firing Marco, first, and not some convoluted attempt at legitimacy by invoking precedent and the semantics between resign and retreat.

If the new rules had included a stipulation that all cabinet posts would be immediately up for election like Ed suggested, and those rules passed, then at least that would be some measure of consistency and fairness. Or, maybe if the majority of members asked for such a special election- for all 5 positions. Again, at least that would be a way for the membership to make their choices in all areas rather than singling out one person.

This is just petty.
Author:  Ernie Sands [ Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: More Petty Politics
Semantics and obfuscation go hand-in-hand.
Author:  Genghis [ Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:51 am ]
Post subject:  Re: More Petty Politics
I must challenge Jeff's comments about "petty politics". In Marco’s original post in the Reading Room Forum, entitled Retreat the Position of Allied CiC From the Cabinet, the first line reads, “I will leave the Cabinet as the CiC of the Allied coalition.” It is pretty clear that the only thing that is petty in this whole affair was Marco resignation from the cabinet because he did not get his own way. That is not the kind of leadership that either this club or the Coalition needs. Furthermore, the recent cabinet decision was a democratic vote with a 3:1 majority. I look forward to the new rules being adopted and democratic elections for previously appointed leadership positions. Hopefully, thereafter, we can turn our full attention to gaming.
Author:  Jeff Bardon [ Thu Feb 13, 2014 1:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: More Petty Politics
To paraphrase an old adage, "two wrongs don't make a right"

If you didn't want to retain Marco as CiC, you should have been able to vote him out. A true democratic process would be a vote of the coalition members without this unnecessary cabinet intervention.
Author:  Ed Blackburn [ Thu Feb 13, 2014 9:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: More Petty Politics
I think we are trying to get to that point Jeff. Ernie it looks to me like it is yourself and others who are playing semantic games. Marco's intention was clearly to leave and try and hold the Cabinet and the club hostage to get his way. We are now in uncharted waters because the old rules do not cover this situation. We have three people on the Cabinent who feel Marco left and one whoe feels he was forced out so that is at least majority rule. I think most people want to see some sort of election after the new rules are voted on. Marco will be able to run if he likes. Until then he is out of the Cabinent by his own choice. To parse or say anything else is disingenuous at best..
Author:  David Guegan [ Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: More Petty Politics
Red Nemesis wrote:
I think we are trying to get to that point Jeff. Ernie it looks to me like it is yourself and others who are playing semantic games. Marco's intention was clearly to leave and try and hold the Cabinet and the club hostage to get his way. We are now in uncharted waters because the old rules do not cover this situation. We have three people on the Cabinent who feel Marco left and one whoe feels he was forced out so that is at least majority rule. I think most people want to see some sort of election after the new rules are voted on. Marco will be able to run if he likes. Until then he is out of the Cabinent by his own choice. To parse or say anything else is disingenuous at best..


I guess as human being we don't all see everything the same way, and I am glad for that.
From my prospective I think Marco was trying to move the cabinet to discussion mode instead of what we can see of the "Cabinet minutes" in the reading section. Instead of having dialog you'll see mostly 1 member saying that he isn't happy with some part of the rules and another saying that he doesn't see any need to change anything on the new text. I would have been in that situation I don't know what I would have done.

What I see, and I might be wrong so please if someone knows about just tell me, is that the President wrote the new rules and mainly stick to his guns fighting any significant change that wouldn't be in agreement with what he though the club should be. To me that looks like a ONE man vision.

It would have been better to start from the actual rules of the club and have the cabinet members discuss what was wrong with it and what could be done to improve it. That would have been a collegial work.

Instead it became that: Club Rules - Draft for Discussion - Section 3 for me the "discussion" on part 3 is really showing what happened.
Author:  Ed Blackburn [ Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: More Petty Politics
Hi David, I do respect your point of view. I don't think that was the case at all or the others on the Cabinent would not have gone along. Since you and I were not part of those discussions we do not know what happened. I think everyone will be agreeable to amending the new rules as we go along but for the moment there are a set of new rules being voted on now so we all have to wait and see if they even get adopted. Everything needs to be more open and transparent from this point on and all the positions should be elected not appointed IMO.
Author:  Ernie Sands [ Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: More Petty Politics
When the rules for the voting were published by the president, OTHER CABINET members called FOUL!

To me, that fully supports the idea that ONE person took it upon himself to impose his OWN agenda, in that instance, and would do the same thing in other instances.

That, to me, fully supports the dismay Marco felt with the autocratic (definition below) maneuvering of one individual and the frustration of trying to discuss issues (Of course, NONE of us are privy to what happens behind the closed doors of the cabinet):

"An autocracy is a form of government in which the political power is held by a single individual.

The term autocrat is derived from the Greek word autokratôr (lit. "self-ruler", "ruler of one's self"). Compare with oligarchy (rule by a minority, by a small group) and democracy (rule by the majority, by the people)."

My perception of the current events could be wrong, but something that looks like a duck, smells like a duck, is usually a duck. :mrgreen:
Author:  Ed Blackburn [ Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: More Petty Politics
Other than John Corbin, who cried foul Ernie?
Author:  Jim Hall [ Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: More Petty Politics
Gentlemen

For once I get the joke. "Smells like a duck" and "foul" :lol:
That's really clever :D
Author:  MCJones1810 [ Thu Feb 13, 2014 2:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: More Petty Politics
Red Nemesis wrote:
Other than John Corbin, who cried foul Ernie?


I think everyone is missing a very important point here...

John voted for the Club Rules as discussed in the Cabinet. It was not 3:2. It was 4:1 with Marco being the only dissatisfied party. You are most welcome to confirm this for yourselves by reviewing the Cabinet Discussion and Voting threads. That is why they were posted in the first place.

What is important is how the members themselves feel about the proposed club rules. Not some members, but all of them. The outcome of the vote that is currently underway will determine the will of the majority, and it is the will of the majority that we will follow.

This was true also of the past and recent actions undertaken by the Cabinet. Please check the votes and tell us what you find.

As Pierre correctly pointed out in an earlier post, this is a process. That does not mean that the vocal minority will ever usurp the silent majority because they can simply scream louder and be more disruptive, but it does mean that all of this is evolving.
Author:  David Guegan [ Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: More Petty Politics
MCJones1810 wrote:
That does not mean that the vocal minority will ever usurp the silent majority because they can simply scream louder and be more disruptive, but it does mean that all of this is evolving.


As you already know since you have seen how I voted I am not against progress or seeing the club evolved. I am just against all the club power going to a Cabinet and a president without any balance of power. We are going the wrong direction.
If I am part of the minority I don't think I am on the wrong side.
Author:  Todd Schmidgall [ Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: More Petty Politics
Salute!

davidguegan wrote:
MCJones1810 wrote:
That does not mean that the vocal minority will ever usurp the silent majority because they can simply scream louder and be more disruptive, but it does mean that all of this is evolving.


As you already know since you have seen how I voted I am not against progress or seeing the club evolved. I am just against all the club power going to a Cabinet and a president without any balance of power. We are going the wrong direction.
If I am part of the minority I don't think I am on the wrong side.


When I look at the NWC, first I see a club, secondly I see individual armies within the club framework.

As I see the Club first, the Cabinet, comprising three members (President - currently only elected position - Secretary, and Public Relations - appointed by the Cabinet - to become elected positions if the Revised Club Rules are passed, and two representatives from the individual Club Armies - CiC's - the Cabinet is the chief authority of the NWC, because it represents the whole Club, not one aspect of it.

The individual armies do not impose their will or view upon the other, nor can they determine the fate of a club member from the opposing army.

Indeed, any officer of one of our armies can appeal any decision imposed upon them by their respected army command to the Cabinet = Cabinet is the highest authority.

And I will point out yet again as others continue to so - the Revised Club Rules process was not one of Mark declaring how it will be, but a contribution from all members, and votes taken by the Cabinet to determine which rules to adapt or adopt.

Votes which were more often than not 4-1 in their outcome.

Perhaps the four who voted consistently in favor of the Revised Rules were completely misguided in their efforts - and the lone dissenter - who quit in his frustration, will be shown to be right in his perceptions - the membership is deciding that right now by exercising their privilege of voting.

I would not call the Revised Club Rules perfect - nor do I believe they are horrendous.

I think they are a positive step forward, and I also believe there will be many more steps to come - for I would hope that our club - this NWC is a journey.

Regards,
Author:  Jeff Bardon [ Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: More Petty Politics
Red Nemesis wrote:
I think we are trying to get to that point Jeff. Ernie it looks to me like it is yourself and others who are playing semantic games. Marco's intention was clearly to leave and try and hold the Cabinet and the club hostage to get his way. We are now in uncharted waters because the old rules do not cover this situation. We have three people on the Cabinet who feel Marco left and one who feels he was forced out so that is at least majority rule. I think most people want to see some sort of election after the new rules are voted on. Marco will be able to run if he likes. Until then he is out of the Cabinent by his own choice. To parse or say anything else is disingenuous at best..


Unfortunately, I think you are only partly correct. In the same statement that Marco said he was leaving the cabinet, he said he remained as CiC. That basically means you can argue however you want and still feel you are right. Being a representative to the cabinet is just one of the duties that belong to a CiC. Talk about uncharted waters. Now you are in a whole dynamic about whether or not he can be the CiC if he is not fulfilling all his listed responsibilities.

After basically figuring out that it was counter productive (wish he'd thought more carefully about that back in December) to his agenda as CiC to continue to not participate in the cabinet, Marco tried to return. So, the easiest thing for the cabinet to do would have been to do nothing and let the election decide the matter.

If you didn't want to wait until this summer, then you could have tried request a special election (however, in the interest of fairness, I would suggest that such a special election put all 5 positions up for election).
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