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Murat and the like trivia
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Author:  Kosyanenko [ Wed Jul 16, 2014 10:50 am ]
Post subject:  Murat and the like trivia
Far to often one can encounter in low quality texts reasoning like:
1. Murat always wore flamboyant uniforms and was personally very brave.
2. Murat was adored by the troops.
3. Hence he was the best cavalry commander of his time.
4. Russians/Austrians/Prussians/whoever clearly had no such a leader.
5. Hence French cavalry was much superior to Russian/Austrian/Prussian/whatever.

But let us leave the validity of such conclusions on the authors head. The tragicomedy in this situation is that at least Russians did have such a leader. Flamboyant, brave, loved by the soldiers. And by the way thoroughly efficient both at tactical and strategic level.

An eyewitness wrote:
"X had several rendez-vous with Murat, the King of Naples From their conversations one could conclude that not always the french prevailed in the show-off. If one could forget about the presence of the enemy their meetings could resemble fair performances. Murat arrived dressed either in hispanic style or in a fictitious foolish dress with a sable hat and brocade pantalons. X was on a cossack horse, witha whip, in three bright colored ill sorted shawls, that were trimmed round his neck and were flying on the wind behind his back."

The question is: who was Mr.X?
Author:  Tim Cavallin [ Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Murat and the like trivia
Platov (of the Cossacks) or Pahlen?
Author:  Tim Cavallin [ Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Murat and the like trivia
I know that Vasilchikov was very skilled, flamboyant and loved by his men as well... maybe its him.
Author:  Kosyanenko [ Wed Jul 16, 2014 1:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Murat and the like trivia
Nope. Platov's a sneaky, not brilliant provincial chap that got a lot of power through intrigues and patience. Would such a man risk literally everything showing-off in front of a peacock dispissed by everyone in the army?

Nope and nope. The guys are beautiful and no doubt brilliant commanders. But much more flamboyant than any hussar of their age and position. And most importantly, why would the Kind of Naples descend to showing-off in front of a mere General-Major?

I could be a bit to ambigous. From a fact that Russian commands some cavalry does not follow that he was born in saddle.
Author:  Tim Cavallin [ Wed Jul 16, 2014 2:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Murat and the like trivia
Prince Galitzin! Now there is a fine high-ranking chap that Murat may have wanted to rub shoulders with. He was a very strong Russian cavalry leader too, and I understand that he beat Murat somewhere in Russia in 1812 with only half the strength that Murat had.

I heard that Grand Duke Constantine had a particular affinity with the cavalry arm.
Author:  Kosyanenko [ Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Murat and the like trivia
Nope. Dmitry Galitzin was a well-bred aristocrat. With his subordinates he was very shy due to his very poor knowledge of the Russian language and myopia. Of course this shyness was often interpreted as arrigance and snobism. At the same time in his private life he was very mild and modest. With no gilding or silk in his house and meubles made of birchwood. I can hardly imagine this man taking part in such a competition.

Again. The person in question had a mixed force under his command. Including cavalry. It does not necessarily mean he was pure cavalry commander. :wink: Eh? :wink: :roll:
Author:  Ed Blackburn [ Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Murat and the like trivia
Hmmm, Bagration? :hmmm:
Author:  Todd Schmidgall [ Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Murat and the like trivia
Salute!

Orlov-Denisov, a brilliant cavalry officer and often commanding mixed forces in rearguard actions, and raiding forces.

Was involved in critical actions in numerous battles of 1812-13 that marked him as an opponent of great skill, and brought him to the attention of the Tsar even.

From what I gather very well respected by his superiors and foes...

Regards,
Author:  Kosyanenko [ Thu Jul 17, 2014 2:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Murat and the like trivia
Todd, a very good try, but no.

"Hospitable, merry and amiable among the camarades, he was tacit with those who he didn't know well. He made a lot of good, built churches, helped the poor and established the first orphanage in Kharkov. Born cossack, he sincerely loved his warriors from Don and thought them to be invincible. In return cossacks worshiped him and were afraid of his severe looks"
and
"He loved luxirious, merry life..."

Ed, even better try! Very close, but no. By the time the events in question were happening Bagration was dying of his wound.

His bravery and skills are well known. But usually Petr Ivanovich in event of high tension, like it always was on campaign would "downshift" to the clothes of his motherland. For example in 1805 he apparently wore bourka (http://culturemap.ru/upload/img/124_83. ... .78698.jpg) and papakha (http://ruskav.ru/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/papaha.jpg).

Come on guys! :frenchcharge:
Author:  Zaraath [ Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Murat and the like trivia
Kosyanenko wrote:
Nope. Dmitry Galitzin was very mild and modest in his private life. With no gilding or silk in his house and meubles made of birchwood.

He had wooden meubles? :shock: What a grievous wound.


Quote:
His bravery and skills are well known. But usually Petr Ivanovich in event of high tension, like it always was on campaign would "downshift" to the clothes of his motherland.

Could it be Ivan Petrovsky Skivar...?

http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/a/abdulabulbulamir.shtml
Author:  David Guegan [ Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Murat and the like trivia
Would it be Fedor Uvarov ?
Author:  Tim Cavallin [ Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Murat and the like trivia
Ok, I've been doing some research:

General Raevsky seems to fit the bill. He could command mixed forces, was often put in command of advanced guard formations... Illustrious military records... very popular all around.

Could this be Mr. X?
Author:  Tim Cavallin [ Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Murat and the like trivia
Wait a minute!

Miloradovich was known as the "Russian Murat"... this has got to be Mr. X! A very daring leader, but considered "lucky".
Author:  Kosyanenko [ Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Murat and the like trivia
Tim Cavallin wrote:
Wait a minute!

Miloradovich was known as the "Russian Murat"... this has got to be Mr. X! A very daring leader, but considered "lucky".


Ura! Ura! URAAAA!!!!

I started to despair! Of course it was Miloradovich, the Roland and Bayard of the Russian army.
Author:  Tim Cavallin [ Fri Jul 18, 2014 9:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Murat and the like trivia
That was a fun exercise. To us western Europeans, the Russian army has always been one of those lesser known entities. So, this "forced research" was a very good exercise for me personally... thanks for throwing that out there!
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