Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)
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Pike and Road MP Rate in 10 Min. Format Scenarios
https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15309		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Bill Peters [ Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Pike and Road MP Rate in 10 Min. Format Scenarios
Guys - this is a POLL for us to take. I am thinking that the 10 min. move format needs a boost. Here is what I am suggesting:

1. The MP rate for Pikes is better than roads often leading to unrealistic advantges to forces that are using them vs. forces using the Road type terrain.

2. Suggestion: make the Road MP rate the same as the Pike MP rate.

Right now Infantry moves 8 hexes on a Pike vs. 5 hexes on a Road. Cavalry moves 10 hexes on a Pike vs. 7 hexes on a Road.

I think this is a "no-brainer" decision but I still would like to see folks take the poll for a month and also offer up your own thoughts.

I have thought of the effects of a "Blitzkrieg" with this too. I dont think it will affect the game and it will allow us to get forces to the front faster too. Also those guys that think the 10 Min. move format is too slow will see an improvement in this area.

The Waterloo/NRC format has Pike and Road using the same MP rate. The Infantry moves 10 hexes a turn and the cavalry 14. I like the concept of it being the same.

Thus the Pike will not lose any of its bonuses but the Road will not be as slow.

I would love to use fractions but those are not allowed for the MP costs. So much for that avenue of thought.

I have enabled "re-voting" in case you change your mind later and want to change your vote. :frenchwink:
Author:  John Corbin [ Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pike and Road MP Rate in 10 Min. Format Scenarios
What is a pike compared to a road?
Author:  Bill Peters [ Tue Oct 06, 2015 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pike and Road MP Rate in 10 Min. Format Scenarios
Well the pike would be more traveled and probably better maintained but after you have an army march across any road during this period it got rather beat up especially during the wet weather.

I just cant see a Pike route giving a force this much of a march advantage.... if we could use fractions I wouldn't be having this discussion ;)

The other answer would be to increase the amount of MPs, cost of terrain, such that the gap narrowed.

For instance: currently MP for infantry is 16 MPs. If I increase it to 32, increase the cost of a pike from 2 to 4 and increase the Road cost from 3 to 5 I get something closer to what I am looking for. Then the infantry moves 8 Pike hexes/turn or 6 Road hexes/turn. But again, did the Pike really give the units that much of a movement advantage over the Road?

My guess is that a Pike was a slightly better surface that could hold up in the weather better but really the Road allowed just as much traverse as the Pike.

And I dont want to mess with the MP allowances at this point.
Author:  S_Trauth [ Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pike and Road MP Rate in 10 Min. Format Scenarios
Isn't the answer a question? What is the impact of a pike in the tactical situation that you are simulating? Did the armies use an increased rate of movement on pikes as opposed to roads in the context of your battle? Was it doctrinal or if not, was it due to environmental conditions?

It isn't really an easy answer - put me down for: 'it depends'. :hmmm:

What I am getting at is - did the armies use pikes in the context of the battle for a movement advantage and if not -was this because the army did not have that as a doctrine? Not all of them did - but I might be crossing periods.
Author:  Bill Peters [ Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pike and Road MP Rate in 10 Min. Format Scenarios
LOL Steve ... dont make it too complicated. We are talking about the units using the same formations, same march style but on different surfaces/routes.

I have seen the condition of some of those pikes in the games when the weather gets bad and I dont see that much of a difference.

If the surface for a Road was hard packed dirt vs. some sort of corduroy surface that they put down then maybe there would be an increase but I think that a "chausee" as a pike would be considered probably could not give the user that big of a movement advantage.

And it might be that a few of those routes in our games were really "paths" too. I personally reserve the Path type for very rural settings. Not only are they meant for that but they are hard to see on the map. The default graphics for a path is hard to pick out in Rough terrain for instance.
Author:  Bill Peters [ Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pike and Road MP Rate in 10 Min. Format Scenarios
63 views .. only 6 votes .... something doesn't add up ... now is your chance to let your vote count. :thumbsup:
Author:  Christian Hecht [ Wed Oct 07, 2015 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pike and Road MP Rate in 10 Min. Format Scenarios
Seems to me that the difference depends on what the designer thought about the pike when he made the map and what that pike really was in reality.
If it was a cobbled road(like those Roman roads for example) I can imagine better performance, but if it was simply a road like others but more of a "main road" because it connect 2 bigger cities or was part of a commerce route so that it was overall wider with a harder surface and maybe also better maintained, then I doubt that there should be a large difference.

The difference we now have per turn based on 8 hexes on a Pike vs. 5 hexes on road will lead to a 1,8 kilometers in just one hour, even if we say that it's a perfectly paved road versus a bad road this difference seems too large.

I don't know what to vote for because I think it really depends on what the designer wants to represent with a pike or road(gee if seen games where roads were used to represent ship lanes), but I like the idea of a smaller difference like 1 hex per turn for infantry.
I'm not sure about Artillery, wagons and cavalry, would they benefit from a better aka paved road?
I think there are specially horseshoe for the really smooth surface that differ from those used for terrain, so with the wrong horseshoes there performance would maybe be eve worse on a better road.
Author:  Andy Moss [ Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pike and Road MP Rate in 10 Min. Format Scenarios
Not many have voted I suspect as they are unsure.

I voted No on the basis that if it ain't bust, don't mend it. Pikes in a campaign game are a focus for movement, just as they were historically I suspect. So you have an inkling of where an opponent is going. With roads included, an opponent could march off anywhere. I regard pikes as simply better quality surfaces and probably wider, and leave it at that, not worry about things like weather effects, increased usage v mud and horse droppings, width or what in fact they are made of.

Besides, my poor brain can't cope with too many alterations.
Author:  Sir Muddy [ Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:18 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pike and Road MP Rate in 10 Min. Format Scenarios
I vote "no".

Pikes are pikes and roads are roads.
Author:  Jim Pfleck [ Thu Oct 08, 2015 8:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pike and Road MP Rate in 10 Min. Format Scenarios
I am waffling (I voted no)--Steve's point rings true about tactically in a one day battle it should not be a huge difference, as Christian also points out. But in longer scenarios, should make a difference and be a little faster...so....waffle waffle waffle..
Author:  Paul Smith [ Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Pike and Road MP Rate in 10 Min. Format Scenarios
I don't think they should be the same but they should be closer than what they are.
Author:  Bill Peters [ Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Pike and Road MP Rate in 10 Min. Format Scenarios
Paul Smith wrote:
I don't think they should be the same but they should be closer than what they are.


The only way to do that would be to change the MP rates and then adjust the MP costs appropriately. Folks are already a bit upset at the three movement rates we have in the series: Eckmuhl/Wagram, NRC/Waterloo, my later titles.

We cant use fractions ...

I could try putting out some alternate versions for folks to try out. You interested in playing a game with me, Paul? :frenchcool1:

Something on the length of 30 turns probably would work.
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