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The Battle of Quatre Bras -AAR and 4.08 Tactical Review https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17500 |
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Author: | SLudwig [ Fri Aug 02, 2024 12:58 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Battle of Quatre Bras -AAR and 4.08 Tactical Review |
Really awesome writeup Alexey!! I really love the graphics you made, not only the map screenshots, but the forces & casualty infographics!! Thanks for doing this not only for the Club, but also the wider audience!! ![]() ![]() Like I said in my email, I'll share this with the Coalition officers in September! (Or sooner if I get the mailing together quick enough) Keep up the great work!! ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Author: | Alexey Tartyshev [ Fri Aug 02, 2024 1:19 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Battle of Quatre Bras -AAR and 4.08 Tactical Review |
Thanks Scott! The success of the AAR is to be measured by the number PBEM registrations for this scenario over the coming month ![]() |
Author: | Andy Moss [ Sat Aug 03, 2024 2:43 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Battle of Quatre Bras -AAR and 4.08 Tactical Review |
An excellent piece of work and analysis. |
Author: | Ed Blackburn [ Tue Aug 06, 2024 9:03 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Battle of Quatre Bras -AAR and 4.08 Tactical Review |
It was surely one of the most exciting and fun battles I have ever played. Alexey is an outstanding player and opponent and this AAR is a work of art IMO. |
Author: | Dean Webster [ Tue Aug 06, 2024 9:32 am ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Battle of Quatre Bras -AAR and 4.08 Tactical Review |
Alexey, I'm interested to know what you think of the new movement allowances? I know that you had issues with their values previously. Dean |
Author: | Alexey Tartyshev [ Tue Aug 06, 2024 3:09 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Battle of Quatre Bras -AAR and 4.08 Tactical Review |
Hi Dean, I think it’s all good for 15-minute turns. But I am yet to try 10-minute turns in 4.08. Perhaps it will play differently, since the artillery firepower remains the same, but the movement allowances differ between the 10- and 15-minute versions |
Author: | Bill Peters [ Sat Aug 10, 2024 2:44 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Battle of Quatre Bras -AAR and 4.08 Tactical Review |
Very nice write-up! You put a lot of work into this. Melees include the following: 1. Advance to within about 80-100 yards where at that point the enemy would unleash a volley. The newer optional rule allowing for that is where the series improved in this regard. Defensive fire is now automatic if playing the Auto-Defensive fire optional rule. 2. Morale check by the attacker to see if they keep on coming. If they Disorder then the melee is over and they would return fire with a WEAK volley. 3. If they fail they stop and fire. The British kept a company of Grenadiers handy to counter attack. This kind of thing is also factored into the melee. 4. If they continue, usually the defender fell back. The chance that this would happen was improved if they were Disordered or had suffered high losses. Also if their flank was not secured. Defensive terrain improved the chances of the defender remaining to repel the attack with bayonet. There rarely was any bayonet fighting. Usually one or the other side would fall back. So an example: Two French battalions assault in echelon along a front against a British battalion. The defender fires. One of the attacking battalions (lets assume it was the forward battalion of the echelon) is hit with fire and checks morale failing and Disordering. They stop, causing the other battalion to decide whether they will advance alone. The Disordered battalion "staggers" and fires back with a weak volley. Inconsequential losses in the ranks of the brave Brits. Which leads me to say that if flank and frontal attacks had a "Coordination Roll" whereby IF the attacker passed that check, then the defender would be more prone to retreat. But really, the losses in a melee should be looked at as being from fire combat. Not bayonets. Flank attacks should definitely improve the chances of success. A Coordination Check for flank attacks needs to be added in. It would improve the realism of the melees. Its hard for me to want to play the series again if the melee has been refined to where its better to just sit and do Seven Years War fire fights. That was NOT Napoleonic warfare and I will debate this point until the cows come home with anyone who says otherwise. The secret of the British success was: 1. 2 rank line allowed more muskets to be on the firing line AND 2. They kept that company of Grenadiers behind the battalion ready to counterattack. The Celtic ferocity of the attack was amazing. Using reverse slope tactics, they would be hitting the French at the downslope on their side of the hill, pressing them back and chasing them downhill. Its was NOT the superiority of British firepower. They were using the Brown Bess musket which was no better than the French, Austrian or Prussian muskets. I cannot speak concerning the Russian musket but it doesn't matter, though I have read where Russian battalions tore the face off of a French battalion in many cases. And even with the Brits firing one round daily at best that means that they had cleared the barrel of any residue, cleaned out the barrel and that was that. Fouled French muskets were not reported on a wide scale. French musket fire could be just as devastating to an Austrian battalion advancing on a French defensive position. Read Brent Nosworthy's "With Musket, Cannon & Sword" where he details the assault in his book. It really helped me better understand the entire melee process. Firefights were not the norm in this period. At Jena, the Prussians were able to keep the French at bay because the latter had a high respect for their disciplined infantry. Its a shame that that is not reflected in a Training grade for the units. A good friend of mine had both a Training and Morale grade in his miniature rules. To date, I have never seen a better set of rules for miniatures but he only created them as a hobby project and not for business sale. All of my attempts to get him to have them published failed. The miniatures world turned to Napoleon's Battles (NB) which was a different scale but allowed for complete battles to be fought. In short, the melee was an ATTEMPT for the attacking to come to grips with the defender but the attacker should not be relegated to "move up, engage in a useless firefight and then assault." Now I usually do not melee a fresh battalion. I try and hit them with artillery fire or some musket fire but if I am intent on taking their position I melee. Its a fire by defender, closing by attacker which usually means that the defender will pull back if they are not in good order. I would never try attacking a fresh battalion in a village hex. Thanks for reviewing 4.08 for us. I know now I will not want to play this newer version of the series. Might as well be playing Seven Years War battles but with the new Blitzkrieg MP rates that Rich & co. introduced. When I heard that the 15 min. versions of the scenarios now use the same amount of TURNS I also knew that they got it all wrong. Rich never cared for the 10 min. turn format so that pretty much doesn't surprise me that these recent changes happened. I am glad that we still have the freedom to use the older versions of the files found in the "Legacy" folder. In short, the glory years of the series are over as far as I am concerned. The artwork for the units has improved but where it regards the heart and soul of the game - the Main Program - its gone off the tracks. I am glad I played the series when I did, had TONS of fun with it. I also wore out of playing the battles so in all it was a good time for me to step out. While I still love the period the competition sort of created an anxiety issue too. But good review and keep up the good work. Commanders: some additional battle points for this fine officer! We need more efforts like this in the club. ![]() |
Author: | Alexey Tartyshev [ Sun Aug 11, 2024 2:00 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Battle of Quatre Bras -AAR and 4.08 Tactical Review |
Hi Bill, Surprisingly, I have reached the opposite conclusion: with version 4.08, the game more closely simulates Napoleonic tactical warfare, and here's why: Historical Tactical Doctrine vs. Version 4.08 Historically, the basic modus operandi was to advance in columns, deploy into lines, and then either engage in a prolonged musket duel until one side collapsed or execute a quick volley followed by a bayonet charge. In version 4.08, this exact sequence occurred during our PBEM game: both sides approached in columns, deployed into lines, and engaged in musketry or melee. A perfect match with historical tactics. One might argue that these were only isolated instances of the French manoeuvred and columns and deployed into lines, but that’s not the case. Historian John Lynn studied the tactical formations used in 108 engagements fought by the Armée du Nord between April 1792 and July 1794. His findings are statistically significant: • In 55 cases (62%), columns deployed into lines, followed by a bayonet attack in 7 cases, while the rest evolved into a prolonged musket duel. • In 35 cases (38%), attacks were made in columns without deploying into line, presumably with a volley and bayonet assault. In 4.08 PBEM, my rough estimate is as follows: • In ~80% of the cases, columns deployed into line for a musket duel (occasionally followed by a bayonet assault when the opposing battalion became disordered). • In ~20% of the cases, the columns proceeded straight to melee without deploying into line. In contrast, my experience with version 4.07 is the opposite: • ~20% of engagements involved attacking in lines. • ~80% of engagements involved columns. It’s evident that reliance on line formation is higher in version 4.08 (80% vs. 62% historically) when compared to historical data from the Armée du Nord. However, when the French faced the British, they rarely attempted to break British lines with columns and more often relied on skirmish and line formations. _______________________ One might argue that the sample from 1792-94 only reflects only the early period of the wars and not relevant to later years, but this is not true. The tactic of advancing in columns and engaging in line was a fundamental strategy for the French throughout the Napoleonic Wars. John Lynn's research applies to French infantry across the entire period, from the Armée du Nord in 1792 to the Old Guard attempting to deploy into line at Waterloo. Here are numerious examples from various periods demonstrating this doctrine in action: https://www.napoleon-series.org/military-info/organization/maida/c_maida3.html https://www.napoleon-series.org/military-info/organization/maida/c_maida1.html#:~:text=%22The%20essential%20fact...,rank%20and%20file%20in%20the This tactical doctrine of approaching in columns and deploying into line was rigorously drilled at the Boulogne camp and codified in 1805 when Marshal Ney issued his "Instructions for the Troops Composing the Left Corps." A key section clearly states that the column's purpose is to provide a rapid and flexible formation for approaching the combat zone, with a focus on deploying from column into line to engage the enemy. An example of this doctrine in practice can be seen at Austerlitz: “The tactical details of the attack by Soult's 1st division are clearly described by a French participant, General Thibault. Nearing the village of Pratzen, the 1st Battalion of the 14th deploys into line and is rebuffed in its attack upon the village. Thibault leads a counterattack with the regiment's 2nd Battalion, which 'deployed as it ran.' Gaining the heights, Thibault is confronted by a heavy Russian counterattack. To respond, he orders the 36th to deploy with all speed. The decisive engagement of the battle ensues. Karl Stutterheim, an Austrian eyewitness, recorded the deployment into line, observing the spearhead of Napoleon's battle stroke at the Emperor's most celebrated battle fought the decisive action in line.” These examples illustrate the tactical modus operandi of the Grande Armée during its glory years in 1805, where the primary tool was to move in columns and engage in lines. Here is another example from 1809: “On April 19, 1809, Saint-Hilaire's Division of Davout's III Corps unexpectedly encountered Austrian infantry in the steeply rolling terrain between Teugen and Hausen. The 57th Ligne formed in battalion columns, struggled to the top of the Hausen Berg under intense artillery and musketry, and then deployed into line. The 3rd advanced to support by extending the line. After a protracted fight, the Austrians retreated.” And the famous one from 1815: “The pattern is repeated throughout Waterloo. During the final French assault of the Imperial Guard, a soldier in Halkett's Brigade writes: ‘Within fifty yards of them, the enemy...attempted to deploy.’ Another Imperial Guard unit facing British fire also attempted to deploy, only to waver and begin drawing out as if to deploy.” Not so much of a linear tactics of Frederick the Great isn’t it ? _______________________ We can assume that the melee in WDS represents a close-range musket duel. However, the problem is that players do not need to deploy into line to initiate such "musket duel," and columns engaged in melee do not end up in lines. This abstraction requires us to imagine formations that don’t match what we see on the map. Fortunately, version 4.08 models this type of combat more accurately, eliminating the need for such imagination. Another issue with pre-4.08 version is that these imaginary musketry duels, displayed as melees, concluded much faster than historically accurate. Players could simply mass more columns at critical points and throw them into a melee, under the assumption that it's a quick musket duel. Version 4.08 slows down engagements, bringing them closer to historical timings. Napoleonic battles often lasted many hours, which is hard to replicate when the typical engagement flow in 4.07 is mass melee, even if we want to call it a musket duel. _______________________ It's important to note that there was no "one size fits all" tactic. The French excelled in flexibility and initiative, often adapting their tactics to the situation: "Commanders placed their soldiers...in ways which exploited terrain and met the tactical challenge. Battalions stood in a full close order repertoire of line, column, and square or dispersed in open order." Consider the Battle of Montebello on June 9, 1800: "General Watrin opens the fight by deploying two battalions of the 6th Légère into line and charging the Casteggio heights. General Victor brings reinforcements. The commander of the 43rd Demi-Brigade places his two flank battalions in open order and keeps his center battalion in column. The 96th Demi-Brigade charges Casteggio in battalion column. Throughout the battle, the French infantry exhibits a well-considered variety of tactical formations, effortlessly deploying from one to another while under artillery fire." This tactical variety is exactly what has been observed in version 4.08 so far. In this PBEM entire brigades were deployed entirely into skirmish formations, significant portions of line infantry was formed into columns ready for melee or maneuver, squares have been formed (though less frequently), and we've seen a few examples of ordre mixte on the attack. This is far from the linear tactics of Frederick the Great. Columns remain the ultimate tool for breakthrough, as demonstrated by the French grand assault in this AAR, but the abusive use of assaulting columns that plagued the game for many years is now less of a concern. _______________________ Love these discussions) Helga! Drinks to all these fine gentlemen! |
Author: | Bill Peters [ Sun Aug 11, 2024 7:34 pm ] |
Post subject: | Re: The Battle of Quatre Bras -AAR and 4.08 Tactical Review |
Yes, they deployed into lines ... but not for prolonged fire melees .... Just have to disagree with you on that and leave it. Too many accounts where the Austrians would come up in Column and go right into an assault. Its WELL known that to just sit in the open exchanging musketry fire is a sure fire way of losing too many men. It was the bane of the commanders that the men would stop to conduct a firefight leaving them open to prolonged periods of receiving MORE losses. That is pretty much what would happen as the troops advanced. Take a shot, decide whether to continue the advance and if not, stop to fire. We also know that a "column" as the game calls it is really two things: road column & a 3 x 2 configuration of companies in line. The front ranks would bear the brunt of the defensive fire with the rear companies ready to move up if one of the companies fell back. Anyway, wonderful AAR and thanks for posting. |
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