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| Commonly Accepted House Rules - HPS Games https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6701 |
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| Author: | Tim Cavallin [ Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:52 am ] |
| Post subject: | Commonly Accepted House Rules - HPS Games |
Good afternoon Gents, Like many others who read (with pleasure) the posts at the Rhine Tavern, I am fairly new to the HPS game engine. I was a tough one to convert, but after having played my first game with (and was soundly thrashed by) Paco in Round #1 of MOE3, I have gained an appreciation for the HPS engine, and will now consider it my primary "engine". I am a proponent of (simple sets) of house rules. The ones proposed by Muddy for MOE3 were quite palatable, understandable, and beneficial for adding more historical context. However, I would guess that further simple tweaks could be done to improve the flavor of battle even more. As such, what would be a good set of house rules (that meet the auspices of simplicity, playability, & reality) to adopt in people's future HPS games? Thanks in advance for your input! Lt. Tim cavallin, AdR P.S. By the way, my vote for the next issued game would be for <b>Campaign Leipzig </b>or <b>Campaign Fall 1813 </b>or <b>Campaign 1813</b>! |
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| Author: | Andy Moss [ Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:10 pm ] |
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Hi Tim So far with HPS I haven't seen the need for any house rules. But then I'm new to it like you. Skirmishers and zoc kills were my 2 bugbears in Bg and both these have now been addressed. The biggest complaint is blitzkrieg tactics where you can bag huge numbers of the enemy in a single turn by the move-melee-move-melee tactic. Clearly given each turn is only 15 minutes that problem needs to be addressed. Thus the embedded melee rule. I wish this could be encoded in the engine as trying to remember these even simple rules is a problem in larger games, moreso when you have several opponents all wanting different things. Generalissimo Opolchenie Korpus Russian Army |
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| Author: | 1379 [ Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:54 am ] |
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I couldn't find the "house rules" for HPS you were referring too. Could you post them or give me a link to them since I would like to see what was proposed. Ken Whitehead Guest |
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| Author: | Kosyanenko [ Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:53 am ] |
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They are here at the bottomn of the page: http://www.wargame.ch/wc/nwc/MOE2/MOE3.htm And a kind of standart for using house rules and an explanation how should they be applied is here: http://www.wargame.org.uk/NapiRules.htm Good Luck! <center>  </center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku Polkovnik Anton Kosyanenko</b></center> |
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| Author: | Le Tondu [ Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:33 pm ] |
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Holy cow. What's up with that "Embedded Melee" rule? It is unhistorical to say the least. Melees took place <font color="orange"><b>whenever</b></font id="orange"> the opportunity presented itself. No one in the Napoleonic Era ever said that all melees have to take place all at one time. I am sorry, but IMO "Embedded Melees" is clearly unNapoleonic. Lieutenant Rick Motko 1er Bataillon, 33° Régiment d'Infanterie de Ligne 2eme Brigade, 11eme division IIIe corps, Armée du Nord |
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| Author: | Gary McClellan [ Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:40 pm ] |
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Lt Motko The rule is there to deal with the gamey usage of Panzer-tactics. In other words, opening a hole with one melee, and then sending more troops through the hole, either to melee again, or start surrounding and the like. It's a comprimise. *shrugs* I don't like it myself, more because I find it a tad fussy, though the abuse mentioned can be even worse. FML Gary McClellan 1st Jäger Bn Chief of Staff Imperial Austrian Army |
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| Author: | Bill Peters [ Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:42 pm ] |
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Rick - Gary basically answers the reason why vets like Bill Peterson and others like myself like the rule. It just got too ridiculous with the players using un-Napoleonic tactics. While not perfect it suffices for some of us. Its not a club rule - its optional and if you dont like the rule dont use it. Oberst Wilhelm Peters 2nd Kuirassiers, Reserve Korps, Austrian Army |
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| Author: | Sabreman1966 [ Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:06 am ] |
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Rick, I have to disagree with you on the 'Embedded Melee' rule, I think given the ground and time scale the rule has some merit. I feel it would be pushing it for a fresh unit to be in a position to pass through the friendly battalion/regiment that had just been involved in the melee, undisordered, to follow up the attack. I agree it isn't a perfect system though, but then nothing is really SekondLieutenant Martin Sabais Brigade-Detachment Kompanies 1. Infanterie-Brigade I. ArmeeKorps Preußische Armee |
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| Author: | Le Tondu [ Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:53 am ] |
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Gary & all, It was too easy to forget the dimensions of all that is taking place. Part of the problem, I think is that this game does not visually distinguish between a march column and what is generally called a column of attack (--which is two companies wide.) Two battalions in march column can easily pass next to each other in the 100 meter wide hex that we use. Now, a battlion in an attack column is a different matter altogether. I see that now. Ok, I will adjust my own playing style. For the future, what if a thicker or <b>bolder</b> arrow was used for an attack column and a thin arrow (like what is used now) was used for a column of march? Distinguishing between the two might be of some help? The AI should distinguish it as well and maybe not allow another battalion to "pass through" after a melee? Just some ideas. Lieutenant Rick Motko 1er Bataillon, 33° Régiment d'Infanterie de Ligne 2eme Brigade, 11eme division IIIe corps, Armée du Nord |
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| Author: | D.S. Walter [ Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:03 am ] |
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More importantly, a column of attack should not qualify for road movement. Conversely, a road column should not receive any attack bonuses (quite to the contrary). <center>Général de Division D.S. "Green Horse" Walter Baron d'Empire, Duc des Pyramides Commandant de la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3ème Division[/url], VIème Corps Bavarois, L'Armée du Rhin Commandant l'Ecole de Mars, L'Armée du Rhin Commandant de la Brigade de Tirailleurs de la Jeune Garde  </center>
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| Author: | Tim Cavallin [ Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:00 am ] |
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So, to answer my original question as to an "optimal" (read efficient, simple to implement, and effective) set of HOUSE RULES, could I hear some recommendations? Based on what I've read and heard from others, generally any set of house rules will include the EMBEDDED MELEE rule. But I'm sure there are others like: 1. Light/Guard units can only break down skimishers to 50% of original strength. 2. Infantry/skirmisher movement restrictions toward formed enemy cavalry. 3. Artillery being deployed inside chateaus.. etc etc... I wouldn't mind hearing about specific rules that would add maximum realism to the games without introducing needless complications and play management. Thanks again. Lt. Tim Cavallin, AdR |
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| Author: | Antony Barlow [ Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:39 am ] |
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In the battleground games I use some rules which aim to have skirmishers behaving historically in open terrain, and they would work with the HPS games too: <font color="beige">A skirmisher unit <b>in clear terrain</b> cannot be adjacent to an enemy formed infantry unit unless stacked with a friendly infantry/artillery unit, and neither can they move to such a position. Skirmishers must retreat to the same hex as friendly infantry/artillery units, OR move to/behind cover, if enemy formed units move adjacent to them.</font id="beige"> It means that in the open attacking formations don't have to melee the skirmishers to clear them out of the way, unless they want to close with the defending battle line immediately. Skirmishers get to 'skirmish', and to temporarily hold up an enemy assault but must then withdraw to safety. If the attack doesn't come then they can deploy again and skirmish, subject to the rules. I admit that it adds complexity to the play and certainly wouldn't be popular with most players, but in my opinion it makes for more historical tactics and actually works well if you follow the intent of the rules. <center>Major Antony Barlow ~ 2nd British (Union) Brigade, Anglo-Allied Cavalry Corps ~ ~ 4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards ~  </center>
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| Author: | Le Tondu [ Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:01 am ] |
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Tim Cavallin</i> .......1. Light/Guard units can only break down skimishers to 50% of original strength. 2. Infantry/skirmisher movement restrictions toward formed enemy cavalry. 3. Artillery being deployed inside chateaus.. etc etc... I wouldn't mind hearing about specific rules that would add maximum realism to the games without introducing needless complications and play management. Thanks again. Lt. Tim Cavallin, AdR <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> Tim, After really looking at it, the MOE House Rules are fine in and of themselves. Minimalism is best IMO. They cover your rule #2 & #3 I believe. I really don't see the need for your listed #1 rule of 50% breakdown for light units. French Leger commonly went 100%. Exact records of what exactly happend weren't kept, so to say they historically only broke down 50% is arbitrary to say the least. Others might have differing opinions. That's why they are called <b><font color="orange">optional</font id="orange"></b> House Rules. Cheers, Rick Lieutenant Rick Motko 1er Bataillon, 33° Régiment d'Infanterie de Ligne 2eme Brigade, 11eme division IIIe corps, Armée du Nord |
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| Author: | Mike Cox [ Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:11 am ] |
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I am with Gary on not liking Embedded Melee. Primarily because I am thick headed and do not 'get it'. When using it, I end up remaining passive for fear of violating the concepts. My opponents who are familiar with it will use it to their advantage and always be able to explain how the move they just made was in fact 'legal' as defined by the rules. (Despite it seeming awfully lightening like in it's execution.) That being said, I find it easier to explain that I don't want to play in a 'Blitzkrieg style' and hope that my opponent is of a like mind and will refrain from it as well. All of this easier to see and understand than to explain and codify. My only rule is a 2 hex leash in the open on skirmishers. <b>Général de Division Michael Cox</b> <font size="4"><i>Principe <font size="1">della </font id="size1">Toscana</i></font id="size4"> Comte de Moselle 
<i><font size="4">Armée du Rhin</font id="size4"> <font size="2">2e battallion, 1er Regiment de Chasseurs a Pied, Inf. de l'V. Gde.</i></font id="size2"> 
<font size="1"><u>In Regards to Skirmisher Flop by Melee Losers:</u> <ul><li>Make it an optional rather than fixed rule (at the very least). </li> <li>Skirmisher stack size relative to retreating formed unit should be a factor (whether in clear or covered terrain). </li> <li>For skirmishers, (not leaders or wagons) covered terrain (swamp, building, city, town, forest, marsh, and perhaps orchard) should negate the overrun result.</li></font id="size1"> </ul> |
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| Author: | Le Tondu [ Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:29 am ] |
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Mike, I felt the same way, but I can live with the MOE rules if I am the odd man out. I want to play this game. What bothered me is what if you forget a melee that has nothing to do with panzer tactics or blitzkrieg tactics as you put it? What if its nowhere near a line, but its an important melee that would have historically taken place, except you simply forgot it by being so focused elsewhere on not breaking the embedded melee rule? Are there any exceptions allowed for that kind of a situation? Something tells me that this rule might possibly need some more polishing. Lieutenant Rick Motko 1er Bataillon, 33° Régiment d'Infanterie de Ligne 2eme Brigade, 11eme division IIIe corps, Armée du Nord |
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