Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)
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Campaigns and Victory Points
https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7742		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Sir Muddy [ Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:05 am ]
Post subject:  Campaigns and Victory Points
For the most part, I play campaign games. These campaigns consist of a series of battles that decide the victor in the campaign. The NWC awards two victory points for each battle in the campaign -- each battle is treated like a stand-alone fight. However, no victory points are awarded for winning a campaign. Is this fair?

For instance, within most campaigns there are some fights that strongly favor one side -- Landshut in Eckmuhl or Ebelsburg in Wagram. Or suppose one side decides that strategically it is not a good idea to attempt to fight one of these battles -- for example, I recently made a strategic choice not to defend the Shevardino Redoubt -- instead I retreated and did not contest the position.

My question then is this: shouldn't victory points be awarded to the winner of the campaign? In every individual battle, my choices are determined by how they will affect the outcome of the whole campaign -- not the individual battles. Yet, the loser of a campaign could very well gain as many, or more, victory points than the winner.

Finally, I also wonder why a victor of a 15 turn scenario is awarded the same number of victory points as the winner of a 50 turn scenario, or a 100 turn scenario. Perhaps scenarios under 20 turns should only award 1 victory point instead of two.

Your thoughts, Gentlemen?

FM Sir 'Muddy' Jones, KG
2nd Life Guards, Household Cavalry
Author:  D.S. Walter [ Fri Jan 13, 2006 5:38 am ]
Post subject: 
I do agree that campaigns should score VP. They do in the CCC, where the campaign format was first introduced.

I do not agree that there should be made a difference between long and short battles. Once we start down that slope (or rather, up that hill, because it's going to be a steep climb), we could as well discuss whether a turn of Shevardino or Mons should really rate the same 1 club point as a turn of Borodino or Ligny-Quatres-Bras. A win is a win is a win and a turn is a turn is a turn. Keep it simple.

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant la Brigade de Grenadiers de la Moyenne Garde
Image</center>
Author:  Kosyanenko [ Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:32 am ]
Post subject: 
At last it all, I mean our membership in the club, is not because of the points, is it?

Although it is embarrassing that french invaders get the same two points for MV as honorable allies commanders[;)][:p][:I]

<center>Image</center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Mayor Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
commander of Little Russian grenadiers regiment</b></center>
Author:  D.S. Walter [ Fri Jan 13, 2006 9:40 am ]
Post subject: 
Wait a minute ... I am beginning to like the idea.

Or rather a variation on the idea.

I don't think scenario <u>length</u> should play a role, for the simple reason that longer scenarios are rarely played until conclusion. A 400 turn scenario can be over after 10 turns too.

However, the huge differences in scenario <u>size</u> are the most obvious source for a feeling of inadequacy regarding the present system. A turn of a tiny game takes 2 minutes to do. A turn of a huge campaign game can take half an hour or more.

What about introducing what I would call a <u>size modifier</u> into the scoring system--both for turn-based club points and for VP. Put the scenarios (we get a complete listing for each game with the new auto system anyway) into five classes, A-E. E would be the tiny, brigade-sized things of the "getting started" sort. D would be the minor engagements, a corps per size, like Teugn-Hausen. C, the medium size operational scenarios, say Hunting Davout, Borisov, Quatres-Bras, etc. B, full main battles, Waterloo, Ligny, Borodino, Wagram. A, the monster campaign games, Waterloo (388) and Eckmuhl (534) and whatever we hopefully get in this dimension in the future.

Then a modifier with a moderate spread is applied to both normal points and VP for each game. Not 1-5, but maybe .5 to 2. So:

E = .5
D = .75
C = 1
B = 1.5
A = 2

So that that the medium scenarios of the Hunting Davout type would score the same as presently, but the really tiny ones half as much and the monster campaigns twice as much.

So a major victory after 20 turns would score 20 points and 2 VP for a medium size scenario, but only 10 points and 1 VP for a really tiny one; and 30 points and 3 VP for a full main battle. The calculation, of course, would be done automatically by the system.

Apart from being fairer in that it would reward the actual effort more, this system would also partially take care of the asymmetry between linked and one-map campaigns, in that the latter would score more points and VP.

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant la Brigade de Grenadiers de la Moyenne Garde
Image</center>
Author:  Barrett, of the Vth [ Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:29 am ]
Post subject: 
<font color="pink">When I slaughter my Allied opponent in 8 turns, why am I stuck only getting 2 VPs? Particularly when it takes the Allies about 8 tries at me to get a draw [just pretend that's true, for the sake of argument; it's actually not that often]. I should get a "genius" bonus! [:p]
General Kosyanenko has it right. In real life, I am not a General; just a recreational software bum; points aren't going to change that. You can decide for yourself if I am worth playing. Andy Moss, who has a gizzilion victory points etc. was probably just as much fun to play as a Captain, as were you Muddy old fella. Besides, you're a Marshal already; I don't think you can earn a Kingship.</font id="pink">

General Barrett,
Duc de Ligny, Comte de Brienne,
Commander, VI (Bavarian) Corps, Army of the Rhine,
and
la 1er Compagnie d'Artillerie de la Vieille Garde
Author:  John Corbin [ Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:52 am ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by D.S. Walter</i>
<br />Wait a minute ... I am beginning to like the idea.

Or rather a variation on the idea.

I don't think scenario <u>length</u> should play a role, for the simple reason that longer scenarios are rarely played until conclusion. A 400 turn scenario can be over after 10 turns too.

However, the huge differences in scenario <u>size</u> are the most obvious source for a feeling of inadequacy regarding the present system. A turn of a tiny game takes 2 minutes to do. A turn of a huge campaign game can take half an hour or more.

What about introducing what I would call a <u>size modifier</u> into the scoring system--both for turn-based club points and for VP. Put the scenarios (we get a complete listing for each game with the new auto system anyway) into five classes, A-E. E would be the tiny, brigade-sized things of the "getting started" sort. D would be the minor engagements, a corps per size, like Teugn-Hausen. C, the medium size operational scenarios, say Hunting Davout, Borisov, Quatres-Bras, etc. B, full main battles, Waterloo, Ligny, Borodino, Wagram. A, the monster campaign games, Waterloo (388) and Eckmuhl (534) and whatever we hopefully get in this dimension in the future.

Then a modifier with a moderate spread is applied to both normal points and VP for each game. Not 1-5, but maybe .5 to 2. So:

E = .5
D = .75
C = 1
B = 1.5
A = 2

So that that the medium scenarios of the Hunting Davout type would score the same as presently, but the really tiny ones half as much and the monster campaigns twice as much.

So a major victory after 20 turns would score 20 points and 2 VP for a medium size scenario, but only 10 points and 1 VP for a really tiny one; and 30 points and 3 VP for a full main battle. The calculation, of course, would be done automatically by the system.

Apart from being fairer in that it would reward the actual effort more, this system would also partially take care of the asymmetry between linked and one-map campaigns, in that the latter would score more points and VP.

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant la Brigade de Grenadiers de la Moyenne Garde
Image</center>
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I just processed a game form for a single 500 turn game... by this formula would the victor ( assuming the full turns played ) be getting 1000 points ?

Monsieur le Marechal Baron John Corbin
Duc de Paive
Commanding the Division de Cavalerie de la Jeune Garde
NWC President
Author:  Jon Graswich [ Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:54 am ]
Post subject: 
What's the old saying the Devil's in the details?

I regulary play PTW: Quatre Bras and NIR: Kutusov Turns to Fight.

I can play a pair of mirror games of PTW: Quatre Bras in less time then one game of NIR: Kutusov Turns to Fight. So I should get double points for NIR: Kutusov Turns to Fight - Right?

However, let's say I play some green French Conscript in NIR: Kutusov Turns to Fight. Easy no-brainer path to VP's. However, I am currently playing the esteemed General Barrett, Duc de Ligny, Comte de Brienne, Commander, VI (Bavarian) Corps, Army of the Rhine, and la 1er Compagnie d'Artillerie de la Vieille Garde (blah, blah, blah) [;)] at PTW: Quatre Bras. This will require some thought. So I should get an opponent strength bonus point - Right?

My point being that although I agree w/ Sir Muddy in theory I disagree in practice.

Kosyanenko nailed it, "I mean our membership in the club, is not because of the points, is it?"

Captain Jon Graswich
<font color="red">11th Light Dragoons
4th Cavalry Brigade
Anglo-Allied Cavalry Corps
H.Q. Staff & Army Webmaster</font id="red">


<i>Treu und Fest</i>
<i>Staunch and Steadfast</i>
Author:  D.S. Walter [ Fri Jan 13, 2006 10:57 am ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by John Corbin</i>
I just processed a game form for a single 500 turn game... by this formula would the victor ( assuming the full turns played ) be getting 1000 points ?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

500 turns? Who are those stubborn lads that played three years to complete a game? Let's create a special medal in their favor. [8D]

1000 points wouldn't seem too much for that feat either. But, play with the figures at your convenience. Maybe give only .5 points per turn in the future. Or raise the rank requirements. [:)]

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant la Brigade de Grenadiers de la Moyenne Garde
Image</center>
Author:  Gary McClellan [ Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:12 am ]
Post subject: 
One thing I wish to clarify. I think that Field Marshal Jones was referring to VP not club points, they are a bit different. The discussion has moved over to club points.

Which are we really discussing?

FZM Freiherr Gary McClellan
Generalissimus Imperial Austrian Army
Portner Grenadier Battallion
Allied Coalition C-in-C
Author:  D.S. Walter [ Fri Jan 13, 2006 11:28 am ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Gary McClellan</i>
<br />One thing I wish to clarify. I think that Field Marshal Jones was referring to VP not club points, they are a bit different. The discussion has moved over to club points.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

That was me. I was introducing the club points. The problem is really very similar.

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant la Brigade de Grenadiers de la Moyenne Garde
Image</center>
Author:  Gabriel Rodriguez [ Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:03 am ]
Post subject: 
This is a great idea, and it would stimulate the campaign´s game between members of this club. I support this proposal
.

http://www.venezuela-emb.org.au/images/flag.jpg
Author:  Gabriel Rodriguez [ Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:54 am ]
Post subject: 
Ilike a system of prize for campaign, so we would stimulate this activity

http://www.venezuela-emb.org.au/images/flag.jpg
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