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Napoleon 1813
https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7761		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  Tim Cavallin [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Napoleon 1813
Has anybody read this partici=ular title, authored by Hezi Shelah? Is it any good? Thoughts? Comments?

Thanks!

Lt. Tim Cavallin, AdR
Author:  Jim Pfleck [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
If it is the one I think it is (if I go did for it I will wake up my wife and get in trouble), it is a good read. Good strategic overview and decent, if not totally detailed, battle descriptions.

I read it 4 or 5 years ago. I would recommend it.

FML Jim Pfluecke
Austrian Cavalry Reserve

Austrian Kavalry Reserve
Author:  Jim Pfleck [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:46 pm ]
Post subject: 
meant to say "if I go get it...."

Austrian Kavalry Reserve
Author:  Andy Moss [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:02 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well I'm still struggling with the overlong introduction which seems to start with the French Revolution and gradually works up to 1813. In fact by page 62 we are just about to read about the 1812 campaign. I don't want a potted history of the Napoleonic Wars in a book on 1813.

He also labours the point that this was the first example of Total War. And the first World War. He puts forward a good argument but I'm not convinced.

As for the strategic and battle descriptions there is nothing new. The battle maps are unhelpful. But at least it is concise. Bibliography gives neither publisher nor date of publication.

It's fairly cheap in paperback. I paid £8.50 at Amazon.


Generalissimo
Opolchenie Korpus
Russian Army
Author:  Gary McClellan [ Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:12 am ]
Post subject: 
Interesting, I have a book that puts forth the claim that the 7YW was the First World War... and if not that war, you can count the War of the American Revolution, and the various side wars that broke out of that.

Then, I also have a book that says that the 1809 campaign was the first Total War *L*

Anyway, haven't read this one, am following the debate to see if I want to snag it.

FZM Freiherr Gary McClellan
Generalissimus Imperial Austrian Army
Portner Grenadier Battallion
Allied Coalition C-in-C
Author:  Jim Pfleck [ Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:25 am ]
Post subject: 
Andy is pretty much right. If you know little about the 1813 Campaign, then this is a decent starting point. This was the first I had read on the subject (I read another but I forget the name.). If you know something of it and want more detail look elsewhere.

And, in my amatuer historian opinion, the 7 years war was the first world war.....

But 1813 is concise and a good read. It is not awefully written but I don't know how much source material he read.

regards,

FML Jim Pfluecke
Austrian Cavalry

Austrian Kavalry Reserve
Author:  D.S. Walter [ Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:40 am ]
Post subject: 
Counting the 7YW and the French Wars as the first true world wars is a pretty much established argument in recent historiography.

Total war, however, in the sense that complex societies choose to trespass the civil/military and the military/social/economic borderlines in order to mobilize for and fight a war is not usually regarded a helpful concept much before the American Civil War.

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant la Brigade de Grenadiers de la Moyenne Garde
Image</center>
Author:  Tim Cavallin [ Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:41 am ]
Post subject: 
Based on the comments made, my decision will be to forgo this title.

Thanks for the input!

Lt. Tim Cavallin
Author:  Mark Eason [ Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:17 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi Tim

Were you just enquiring about this book, or are you looking for books on 1813?

If the latter, Nafziger's trilogy is good, as is Petre's - Napoleon's Last Campaign in Germany.

If you read French, and are interested in the Spring Campaign, Foucart's 'Bautzen' and 'Bautzen jusqu'à l'armistice' are very detailed accounts from the French perspective - and include most of the correspondence between Napoleon / Berthier and the Marshals / Generals.

Although I have not yet read it, Lanrezac's 'La Manoeuvre de Lutzen' is, I believe, highly rated.

Happy reading

Mark
Author:  Bill Peters [ Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Gary McClellan</i>
<br />Interesting, I have a book that puts forth the claim that the 7YW was the First World War... and if not that war, you can count the War of the American Revolution, and the various side wars that broke out of that.

Then, I also have a book that says that the 1809 campaign was the first Total War *L*

Anyway, haven't read this one, am following the debate to see if I want to snag it.

FZM Freiherr Gary McClellan
Generalissimus Imperial Austrian Army
Portner Grenadier Battallion
Allied Coalition C-in-C
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I think the reference was to TOTAL WAR - not WORLD WAR.

Total war has to do with the entire economy being used to generate war materials or being involved wholesale. It also has to do with the use of a large national effort.

1809 according to Robert Epstein was the first use of an army on a distributed front. 1813 classifies as the first use of Total War.

Seven Years War is the first world war.

Bill Peters
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]
Author:  D.S. Walter [ Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:21 pm ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mark Eason</i>
<br />Hi Tim

Were you just enquiring about this book, or are you looking for books on 1813?

If the latter, Nafziger's trilogy is good, as is Petre's - Napoleon's Last Campaign in Germany.

If you read French, and are interested in the Spring Campaign, Foucart's 'Bautzen' and 'Bautzen jusqu'à l'armistice' are very detailed accounts from the French perspective - and include most of the correspondence between Napoleon / Berthier and the Marshals / Generals.

Although I have not yet read it, Lanrezac's 'La Manoeuvre de Lutzen' is, I believe, highly rated.

Happy reading

Mark
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Thanks, Mark! I was just now looking for books on the 1813 campaign. (After I have finished my 1812 reading. [;)])

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant la Brigade de Grenadiers de la Moyenne Garde
Image</center>
Author:  Jim Pfleck [ Fri Jan 20, 2006 3:33 am ]
Post subject: 
I have read two of the NAfziger 1813 books (Lutzen/Bautzen and Dresden, but not Leipzig yet).

They would certainly be the place to start. Much more detailed in the combat but still enough background info to give the big picture.

Austrian Kavalry Reserve
Author:  Gabriel Rodriguez [ Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:30 am ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jim Pfleck</i>
<br />I have read two of the NAfziger 1813 books (Lutzen/Bautzen and Dresden, but not Leipzig yet).

They would certainly be the place to start. Much more detailed in the combat but still enough background info to give the big picture.

Austrian Kavalry Reserve
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
this is the reason of you delay [;)]

http://www.venezuela-emb.org.au/images/flag.jpg
Author:  Tim Cavallin [ Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:45 am ]
Post subject: 
Thanks Mark,

Yeah, I already have the most popular of the English 1813 material... Nafziger, Bowden, Maude, Petre, Hofshroerer (Osprey Campaign series).

I wish I was more fluent in French, because there are a lot of beautiful and informative books that have come out of France!

Hope all is well with you... we should play a game sometime!

Lt. Tim Cavallin, AdR
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