Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)
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Fortified Positions
https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8544		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  D.S. Walter [ Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:01 am ]
Post subject:  Fortified Positions
Combat troops in the Napoleonic wars didn't dig trenches and create abatis etc. as a matter of fact as troops did in the last two years of the American Civil War. But sappers did build artillery batteries, redoubts and such things to fortify key points of a defensive position, given enough time (upwards of a day I would think). Examples abound from the Austrian, the Polish and of course the Russian campaign, e.g. Borodino.

When we had the BG games with scenarios that lasted a few hours, there was no need for such things. But now that we have campaign games that last several days, shouldn't it be possible for sappers (since they are in the game already) to fortify positions? Just make it last a day or so to complete/succeed ...

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant les Grenadiers à Pied de la Vieille Garde, "les Grognards"
Image</center>
Author:  Bill Peters [ Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:32 am ]
Post subject: 
Have thought the same way for some time for this series and the Panzer series for Bunkers. Bunkers didnt take that long to build. Could be done over a period of a week. With some of the Panzer scenarios going for hundreds of turns ... similar to what we have here.

I would also like to see Sappers be able to blow a gap in a high wall as well as fortify village hexes. Also help TAKE a village.

Lots of things we could do in the engine. Just a matter of whether John will get to it or not.

Bill Peters
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]
Author:  Kosyanenko [ Sat Dec 16, 2006 10:10 am ]
Post subject: 
idea is great, but impossible I believe. As it's coded now redoubts etc are a part of map and are described in it. Also they do not have strength included right now. I'm afraid it's a lot of work and there are some more urgent things to do.

But if we are to dream they should also be able to build and improve roads[:)]

<center>Image</center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Mayor Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>
Author:  Richard [ Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:09 am ]
Post subject: 
Trenches and abattis (or else various equivalent obstacles) were used centuries before the ACW ... and not only for siege operations.

While pioneers/sappers might be required to construct complex defensive works (although perhaps these might take some days to build), surely <i>any</i> troops - or even conscripted civilians - should be capable of digging trenches, throwing up breastworks or setting up abattis.


Maj. Rich White
4th Cavalry Brigade
Cavalry Corps
Anglo-Allied Army
Author:  Gary McClellan [ Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:41 pm ]
Post subject: 
Capable of is not the same as saying that it was the practice. I do agree that Sappers should be able to create fortified positions, using a mechanism similiar to the Breastworks function in in the ACW games.

Overall though, I find fortified positions to be rather weak in the game, other than of course the accursed Chateaus

Feldmarschall Freiherr Gary McClellan
Generalissimus Imperial Austrian Army
Portner Grenadier Battallion
Allied Coalition C-in-C
Author:  Al Amos [ Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:09 pm ]
Post subject: 
I recommend Duffy's book on seige warfare. It covers the SYW period, basically, but it is close enough for our purposes here. In it, Professor Duffy covers digging rates, etc for preparing different items like batteries and trenches. I think it would give a good base to work with for creating game mechanics.

As for the technical details, bridges have strength points, and can be destroyed by fire or assault, and repaired, so that part of the coding could be transfered to trenches, redoubts, etc.

Also, the Squad Battles series has destructible terrain features in it. Perhaps, John could port some of that into the Nap engine.

Bruce Quarry has a book on Napoleonic Campaigning with miniatures. In it he has some good simple ideas for seiges, logistics, etc that could throw some light on some much needed add-ons into the Nap game engine since we have progressed beyond the eight hour, one day battle.

Colonel Al Amos
1erè Brigade Commandant
2ème Division de Dragons
Author:  D.S. Walter [ Sun Dec 17, 2006 7:36 am ]
Post subject: 
I realize that there are a lot of improvements that would be desirable, but would take too much of an effort to code.

I mentioned this because I believe that an already existing (in the ACW games) feature - entrenching - could be simply used for this, if
1) it were restricted to sappers (pioneers);
2) the chance for completion were set really low.

[:)]

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant les Grenadiers à Pied de la Vieille Garde, "les Grognards"
Image</center>
Author:  valere5 [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 12:10 am ]
Post subject: 
Infantry units in the ACW Battleground serie can make breastworks.
Would it be difficult to apply it in the HPS engine ?[?]

<font color="orange">Kapitein Valère Bernard </font id="orange">
<font color="red">Anglo-Allied Administrative Adjutant</font id="red">
<font color="orange">Divisie Nederlandsche Kavallerie
I Corps
Anglo-Allied Army
</font id="orange">
Author:  Ed Blackburn [ Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:04 am ]
Post subject: 
While we are on the subject of sappers and engineers I would like to see an ability for them to build ponton bridges. The French were particuarly adept at this skill in 1809.

Brigadier General Ed Blackburn
Commanding Second Div, II Corps, AAA
3rd Bn / 1st Regiment of Foot Guards
Image
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