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| Cavalry Charges During Hours of Darkness https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8585 |
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| Author: | Jeff Mathes [ Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Cavalry Charges During Hours of Darkness |
I'm sure this topic has been debated in the Tavern before. How historical, or realistic, were cavalry charges at night (visibility one hex)? Historical occurrences (many/few)? I've noticed in the new Jena release that cavalry can charge at night without disordering. In the Battle Ground games I seem to remember cavalry disordering when trying to charge at night which in turn reduced the charge distance and impact of the charge. Similar to infantry in line movement at night which results in disorder. Perhaps my memory is failing... Interested in hearing comments/experiences and if any house rules are used. Lieutenant Jeff Mathes 3. Ligne Regiment 1. Brigade 16. Division V Corps L'Armée du Rhin |
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| Author: | Al Amos [ Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:22 am ] |
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1809 there was a moonlit cavalry battle up around Ratisbonne. I can't recall any other major cavalry battles occuring in the dark. Colonel Al Amos 1erè Brigade Commandant 2ème Division de Dragons |
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| Author: | Jeff Mathes [ Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:45 am ] |
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Moonlight would increase the hex visibility factor, although I've not witnessed this in any of the campaign games. Lieutenant Jeff Mathes 3. Ligne Regiment 1. Brigade 16. Division V Corps L'Armée du Rhin |
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| Author: | Francisco Palomo [ Sun Dec 31, 2006 4:50 am ] |
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Jeff, One of the feautures of the Jena game is that, by manipulating the "weather" parameters, movement at night is severely curtailed. As applied to cav, they can only move across two (2) hexes of clear terrain, hence any "charges" would be extremely limited[:D]. Regards, Paco <i>Maréchal</i> M. Francisco Palomo <i>Prince d'Essling, Grande Duc d'Abrantes et Comte de Marseille Commandant - Division de Cavalerie de la Vieille Garde </i> 
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| Author: | Jeff Mathes [ Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:05 am ] |
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Paco, My experience with Jena is that cavalry expend five movement points in clear terrain during darkness without light or heavy rain. That gives them a four clear hex movement/charge distance based on 21 movement points. The question is should cavalry be allowed to charge any distance during hours of darkness (one hex visibility) without becoming disordered. Without a change to the game engine, a house rule of no cavalry charges during hours of darkness would need to be implemented for those looking for more historical play. My two cents... Lieutenant Jeff Mathes 3. Ligne Regiment 1. Brigade 16. Division V Corps L'Armée du Rhin |
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| Author: | Francisco Palomo [ Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:27 am ] |
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jeff Mathes</i> <br />Paco, My experience with Jena is that cavalry expend five movement points in clear terrain during darkness without light or heavy rain. That gives them a four clear hex movement/charge distance based on 21 movement points. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> Jeff, Bill Peters plotted the Jena game so that there is ALWAYS "light or heavy rain" during night turns, at least in the extended campaign scenarios, to put a damper on night fighting/movement. [:p] Regards, Paco <i>Maréchal</i> M. Francisco Palomo <i>Prince d'Essling, Grande Duc d'Abrantes et Comte de Marseille Commandant - Division de Cavalerie de la Vieille Garde </i>
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| Author: | Jeff Mathes [ Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:48 am ] |
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Paco, That's not the case. Start the Scharnhorst campaign, skip through the French turn to the Prussian turn, then move a cavalry unit. Charge a cavalry unit. Movement/charge distance is four hexes in clear terrain. Visibility is still one hex (night) at 0600 with weather condition of fog/damp. Cavalry movement in clear terrain during daylight is four movement points per hex, or one extra hex of movement when compared to movement during the hours of darkness without light/heavy rain. Lieutenant Jeff Mathes 3. Ligne Regiment 1. Brigade 16. Division V Corps L'Armée du Rhin |
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| Author: | Francisco Palomo [ Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:39 am ] |
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Jeff, "0600" is not a night turn, visibility is limited due to the early AM fog. I am up to <font size="4"><font color="red">Turn 275 </font id="red"></font id="size4">in the Scharnhorst Campaign and movement is always severely hobbled during the "night" turns. Regards, Paco <i>Maréchal</i> M. Francisco Palomo <i>Prince d'Essling, Grande Duc d'Abrantes et Comte de Marseille Commandant - Division de Cavalerie de la Vieille Garde </i>
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| Author: | Jeff Mathes [ Sun Dec 31, 2006 6:52 am ] |
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Paco, I opened some old turns from the Scharnhorst campaign I played. At 0130 and at 0300 it was damp/fog and cavalry still moved/charged four hexes. No disorder except for infantry moving in line. I agree the designers imposed movement penalties for night movement, but the fact is that in damp/fog weather conditions during night turns the movement penalty in open terrain is only one hex. Best Regard, Jeff Lieutenant Jeff Mathes 3. Ligne Regiment 1. Brigade 16. Division V Corps L'Armée du Rhin |
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| Author: | Bill Peters [ Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:26 pm ] |
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Jeff - I just put a test scenario using 9pm as the start time. Each hex cost me 5MPs to move normally AND for the charging Prussian cavalry. The cost per hex is the same for all night moves. Now during a NORMAL turn the cavalry would spend 4 MPs per hex and would charge 5 hexes. As to getting John to curtail night charges ... I suggest you send this to the HPS Support email for Rich and John to consider. Rich is the head Napoleonic designer now and he and John take all of these game engine fixes into consideration. My role is mainly to put games together and comment on game engine updates as they bring them to my attention OR if I see something that I think is not kosher (like the comments here on the Bridge LOS issue). Hope this helps. Bill Peters HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come) [url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url] |
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| Author: | Jeff Mathes [ Mon Jan 01, 2007 6:51 am ] |
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Bill, I'll send the HPS folks the recommendation. I believe I read that the new cavalry charge multiplier is five for Jena, vice three in the other titles. Can you confirm this? Would this be a result of the new maximum stacking numbers? Thanks, Jeff Lieutenant Jeff Mathes 3. Ligne Regiment 1. Brigade 16. Division V Corps L'Armée du Rhin |
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| Author: | Richard [ Mon Jan 01, 2007 7:39 am ] |
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The pdt can already be modified to prevent cavalry charges during night or poor weather conditions. (This can be modified on a turn by turn basis just like any other weather condition). In the following line of weather: 1 1815 6 15 1 30 100 1 200 100 -50 <b>1</b> Night The final 1 before "Night" will prevent cavalry charges. (The usual "0" means that charges are permitted) Maj. Rich White 4th Cavalry Brigade Cavalry Corps Anglo-Allied Army |
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| Author: | Bill Peters [ Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:55 am ] |
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Rich - true. However, I can quote another cavalry/pursuit action that occured in history. 1806 - actions at night not uncommon. 1809 - along with the Alt Eglofsheim you may remember that Gen. Wrede and his Bavarian cavalry also pursued the unfortunate Louis' force towards Landshut after the great action by Napoelon (Lannes and co.) east of Abensberg. While its true that we could turn off cavalry charging at night I also must say that its up to the players as to how they will deal with this. If they like, go ahead and use a modified PDT file that uses the 1 value as you point out. Bill Peters HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come) [url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url] |
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