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Skirmisher Kills too high - Waterloo Only
https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=8628		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  PAW1800 [ Sat Jan 13, 2007 1:34 am ]
Post subject:  Skirmisher Kills too high - Waterloo Only
Hello,

It seems to me the latest patch has really made skirmisher units useless. I am finding 17 man kills from units in column, 40+ kills from line. More often than not.

This is so high the skirmishers are not even effective in the forest.

I do not find it happening in other titles.

Anyone else?



<b><font color="gold">Col. </b></font id="gold">Paul Wakeman [url="http://www.acwgc.org/acwgc_members/paw/wakeman-AdR.htm"](OBD)[/url]
<font color="beige">2nd Light Rgt</font id="beige">
<font color="orange">2nd Brigade
22nd Saxon Division
<b>VII Saxon Corps</font id="orange">
<font color="red">Armée du Rhin (ADC)</b></font id="red">

Paul_Wakeman@yahoo.com
Author:  Antony Barlow [ Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:29 am ]
Post subject: 
If that means that a guard skirmisher screen can no longer prevent the arrival of the Prussians then I'll be rejoicing.[:D]

<center>[url="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.r.barlow/Napoleonic/nap.htm"]Lieutenant Colonel Antony Barlow[/url]
~ [url="http://www.geocities.com/anglo_allied_army_stats/Anglo_Allied_Army_Cavalry_Corps.htm"]2nd British (Union) Brigade, Anglo-Allied Cavalry Corps[/url] ~
~ [url="http://www.geocities.com/militaireacademie/dragoons.html"]4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards[/url] ~
Image</center>
Author:  Michael Ellwood [ Sat Jan 13, 2007 3:51 am ]
Post subject: 
Hiya,

I've not noticed it in the couple of Waterloo disk scenarios games I've played (have justed started my fist HPS Waterloo Historical now)and I do like using my skm coys in the advance/attack in close. However I usually try to use cover (if adjacent) or have them supported with an adjacent formed unit so the defender can choose either the close tgt skm coy or the longer range formed unit.
I would suspect your skm coys recieving that kind of casualty effect are adjacent to the firing unit, in good order and in a clear hex, not a recommended position (within 100 meters [xx(]!), even for skirmishers. Be patient, use longer range fire and close range cover to reduce and disorder them prior to going in so close.
If however my interpretation is not correct, you are doing this and still getting that kind of punishment, I have no idea [?]!

Regards
Lt Col Mike Ellwood
Konig Regt
1 Bde, 22 Div
VII (Saxon) Corps, ADR
Author:  Michael Ellwood [ Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:00 am ]
Post subject: 
Bon jour Anthony,

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Antony Barlow</i>
<br />If that means that a guard skirmisher screen can no longer prevent the arrival of the Prussians then I'll be rejoicing.[:D]

<center>[url="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.r.barlow/Napoleonic/nap.htm"]Lieutenant Colonel Antony Barlow[/url]
~ [url="http://www.geocities.com/anglo_allied_army_stats/Anglo_Allied_Army_Cavalry_Corps.htm"]2nd British (Union) Brigade, Anglo-Allied Cavalry Corps[/url] ~
~ [url="http://www.geocities.com/militaireacademie/dragoons.html"]4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards[/url] ~
Image</center>
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I must say I am dissappointed you have faced such a French officer/s who would stoop to using L'Gaurd in such a manner! Nearly as bad as those that use allied guard units in just such a way, and I would acknowledge here that you Sir do not stoop to such!

Happy New Year to you and your family [:)].

Regards
Mike Ellwood
Author:  Antony Barlow [ Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:36 am ]
Post subject: 
Mike,

A Happy New Year to you and your family too. My British guards in recent games have taken their punishment on the chin from Bony's guns without complaint or flinching, save a few companies that reinforced Hougoumont[:D].

Seriously though I think that skirmishers out in the open and within 100 metres of a formed enemy unit in good order should take significant losses, forcing you to keep them back a bit, or in cover, as Mike suggested.

Paul, how many skirmishers did you have in a hex? If there were too many then maybe they lost their open order bonuses. From the manual:

"When the target unit is a Skirmisher unit and the total stacking in the hex does not exceed 1/8 maximum stacking, then the fire value is 25% of normal."

<center>[url="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.r.barlow/Napoleonic/nap.htm"]Lieutenant Colonel Antony Barlow[/url]
~ [url="http://www.geocities.com/anglo_allied_army_stats/Anglo_Allied_Army_Cavalry_Corps.htm"]2nd British (Union) Brigade, Anglo-Allied Cavalry Corps[/url] ~
~ [url="http://www.geocities.com/militaireacademie/dragoons.html"]4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards[/url] ~
Image</center>
Author:  Bill Peters [ Sat Jan 13, 2007 6:53 am ]
Post subject: 
Send any files you have to Rich at the Support email. Make sure you have plenty of ammo (read: examples) when you do this. He still thinks that if we change the fire value mod for skirmishers that it will make them more powerful. Frankly from what I see skirmishers are a nuisance at best.

Again, one or two shots wont persuade him or John to do anything. You must send them plenty of examples. Anything you can do to help get this changed would be appreciated.

The new rule that stops return fire at skirmisher movement or fire is nice. Thus its now a choice of the phasing player whether he wants to fire on skirmishers or not. However, for historical purposes lines firing at skirmishers was a huge waste of time. Yet we see those big Austrian lines or French lines (Jena) basically wasting a skirmisher.

Skirmishers get run down, retreated over, routed, out shot and basically toasted in the game. They are a minor nuisance at best.

Bill Peters
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]
Author:  Ola Berli [ Sat Jan 13, 2007 7:15 am ]
Post subject: 
Bill,

I do not agree with You.
In some games it is much more than a nuisance.
Good skirmisher play from the french side can make much problems.

Leave it as it is no change please.

Major Ola 'Freiherr' Berli
IR 18 d'Aspre
II Armee Korps
Imperial Austrian Army
Author:  Richard Hamilton [ Sat Jan 13, 2007 8:57 am ]
Post subject: 
Paul,

If you have skirmishers stacked in excess of 250 men per hex I believe they loose their skirmisher benefit when receiving fire. So make sure that isn't it. I have 3 games going in this engine right now and I am not seeing what you are reporting.

But, as always, sending the game file with the report to the Support account is the way to go and if an issue does exists we'll track it down.



Maréchal Hamilton, Baron d'Barbancon
21st Division
VII Corps, ADR

Saxon Leib-Garde, de la Jeune Garde, Garde Impériale

Image
Author:  PAW1800 [ Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:07 am ]
Post subject: 
Excellent,

I missed the 250+ man thing. Does it apply to stacking with a column?

I am in the forest and getting killed, so I will spread my skirmishers thinner.

I can live with that rule. I had most hexes around 300 with columns behind, but they were taking kills so fast I couldn't keep my skirmisher line.





<b><font color="gold">Col. </b></font id="gold">Paul Wakeman [url="http://www.acwgc.org/acwgc_members/paw/wakeman-AdR.htm"](OBD)[/url]
<font color="beige">2nd Light Rgt</font id="beige">
<font color="orange">2nd Brigade
22nd Saxon Division
<b>VII Saxon Corps</font id="orange">
<font color="red">Armée du Rhin (ADC)</b></font id="red">

Paul_Wakeman@yahoo.com
Author:  Francisco Palomo [ Sat Jan 13, 2007 11:28 am ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by PAW1800</i>
<br />Excellent,

I missed the 250+ man thing. Does it apply to stacking with a column?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Paul,

Yes, skirmishers only get their defensive bonus when a) they are stacked by themselves, b) the toal number of men in the hex is 1/8 of the stacking limit (E.g., in Jena there have to be less than 200 men).

Regards,

Paco

<i>Maréchal</i> M. Francisco Palomo
<i>Prince d'Essling, Grande Duc d'Abrantes et
Comte de Marseille
Commandant - Division de Cavalerie de la Vieille Garde </i>
Image
Author:  Ola Berli [ Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
Very good that the Gents agree. Had been a bleak future with
Super Skirmishers ala Battleground!

Major Ola 'Freiherr' Berli
IR 18 d'Aspre
II Armee Korps
Imperial Austrian Army
Author:  Bill Peters [ Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Ola Berli</i>
<br />
Bill,

I do not agree with You.
In some games it is much more than a nuisance.
Good skirmisher play from the french side can make much problems.

Leave it as it is no change please.

Major Ola 'Freiherr' Berli
IR 18 d'Aspre
II Armee Korps
Imperial Austrian Army
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Give me an example. Where in the games can skirmishers do anything like what they used to do?

Even if you have the overrun rule on it wont matter. Keep some cavalry nearby if the get out in the open and run them down.

In NIR they were very powerful able to surround stacks of units and tie them up for long periods of time. In the Single Phase system you can melee them out of existence.

Bill Peters
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]
Author:  Ola Berli [ Sat Jan 13, 2007 10:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hello Bill,

what You mean with " what they used to do " Are you thinking
historical or in the Battleground game?

Looks like it is an agreement that skirmishers in HPS stay as they
are and that is good enough for me.


No big point from me Bill, I only like these games as they are [:)]


Major Ola 'Freiherr' Berli
IR 18 d'Aspre
II Armee Korps
Imperial Austrian Army
Author:  Bill Peters [ Sun Jan 14, 2007 5:27 pm ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Ola Berli</i>
<br />Hello Bill,

what You mean with " what they used to do " Are you thinking
historical or in the Battleground game?

Looks like it is an agreement that skirmishers in HPS stay as they
are and that is good enough for me.


No big point from me Bill, I only like these games as they are [:)]


Major Ola 'Freiherr' Berli
IR 18 d'Aspre
II Armee Korps
Imperial Austrian Army
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Battleground mainly but even in early renditions of the HPS series they had some power.

If you use the No Skirmisher Overrun rule then they can be used to wipe out battalians in the open terrain.

If you dont use the rule then they are further reduced in ability (a historical IMHO for open terrain).

I would have preferred the rule to only affect skirmishers in the open and not allow them to be overrun in covered terrain. That way we wouldnt have needed the No Overrun Rule to begin with. At least make chateau hexes invalid.

Thus even if you play with the no overrun rule ON (which helps skirmishers) the new No Melee Elimination rule STILL renders the skirmisher ineffective in ZOC'ing a unit on the same turn.

Which is more or less what I was getting at. You cant use skirmishers as you used to before this new rule was introduced AND if you had the No Overrun rule ON.

Bill Peters
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]
Author:  D.S. Walter [ Sun Jan 14, 2007 11:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Just to be sure I get this right ...

1) No Overruns ON means skirmishers can block a hex for a unit retreating from melee and thus help in its elimination;

2) No Overruns OFF means skirmishers are overrun and eliminated when a unit retreats from melee into their hex.

Correct?

If so, then it would seem we have now the choice between two rather unhistorical solutions. Was it never considered to simply have the skirmisher unit retreat, in turn, into an empty or friendly-occupied hex? Because that would seem the most likely thing to happen. [:)]

<center>
D.S. "Green Horse" Walter, Maréchal d'Empire
Duc des Pyramides, Comte de Normandie
Commandant la [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/3_VI_AdR_Home.htm"]3e Division Bavaroise[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant [url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_Walter/NWC/EdM_start.htm"]L'Ecole de Mars[/url], L'Armée du Rhin
Commandant les Grenadiers à Pied de la Vieille Garde, "les Grognards"
Image</center>
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