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| Engineers As Formed Units? https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9559 |
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| Author: | Jeff Mathes [ Tue Feb 19, 2008 12:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Engineers As Formed Units? |
Initially posted this at Pierre's for French discussion. Why are engineer units not a skirmisher type unit, vice a formed unit? The mission they performed was in an unformed status and their utility as line infantry was negligible due to their small unit size. As formed units, engineers are very susceptible to artillery pass through fire, especially since it takes a number of companies to achieve any noticeable result quickly. This is not realistic in my opinion. Changing engineers to unformed skirmisher type units would negate the pass through artillery fire while providing a more realistic approach to the engineer mission in these games. Another benefit would be taking advantage of infantry squares rather than being run down by hostile cavalry. Jeff Mathes Colonel 3. Ligne Regiment 1. Brigade 16. Division V Corps L'Armée du Rhin |
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| Author: | clifton seeney [ Tue Feb 19, 2008 1:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Mon ami in the HP game Wagram the oeuvre de gene tack a beating that they didn't I think that it is done to even the games but that not what happen how can it be right to even the games, Pardon moi is I said anything that would upset anyone Merci . Col de Art 6/3 II Corps AN Marbot CS |
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| Author: | Bill Peters [ Tue Feb 19, 2008 5:03 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Jeff - this is a good note. Unfortunately I just put out the update for Eckmuhl but perhaps for Wagram I might consider making them a permanent skirmisher unit. Thanks for commenting on this. Lieutenant Colonel Bill Peters Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come) [url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url] 
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| Author: | Theron Lambert [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
If they are changed to a permanent skirmisher unit, what does that do for rallying if the need ever arises? Marechal Theron Lambert Grande Duc de Montereau et Duc d'Angers Cavalerie du VI Corps Armee du Rhin Commandant Grenadiers a Pied "les Grognards" |
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| Author: | Yann Lamezec [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:54 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I think the Jeff's solution give much problems than they resolve. First is the problem pointed out by Theron and the second : if enginners becomes skirmilshers cavalry will be able to take them by a charge. But may be i'm wrong ? Regards Marechal Lamezec Prince et Comte de Davout French CIC |
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| Author: | clifton seeney [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:43 am ] |
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In Hp games they are only use to repair bridges so how can 1.Cheval attack /charge across a bridge 2. Sk's are easy to relly if you fall back 3. keep them out of combat and with protection 4.Allies don't need them Merci! Col de Art 6/3 II Corps AN Marbot CS |
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| Author: | Yann Lamezec [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:50 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
I like your 4th point [:D] Regards Marechal Lamezec Prince et Comte de Davout French CIC |
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| Author: | Bill Peters [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 5:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
The rallying aspect - permanent skirmisher companies now can independently rally as per the Prussians skirmishers in Jena. This was changed in the last update by John Tiller after reports from customers of skirmishers unable to rally. Skirmishers of Ligne battalians must still be within 4 hexes of a parent unit before they will rally. Basically any skirmisher that breaks down from a "I" type unit. As to being run over - if that happens to your bridge engineers then you deserved it! Either you didnt perform proper security of the area near the bridge slated for repair or your enemy was devious enough to sneak in a cavalry unit and should be rewarded! BUT ... I will discuss all of this with Rich H. before I do any changes. Lieutenant Colonel Bill Peters Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come) [url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]
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| Author: | Gary McClellan [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 6:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Bill, You best talk to John T as well. As Engineers currently only repair bridges in their "facing", making them skirms could create a situation where they never do their job as intended. I think it would take more than a simple pdt change. Feldmarschall Freiherr Gary McClellan Generalissimus Imperial Austrian Army Portner Grenadier Bn Allied Coalition C-in-C |
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| Author: | Bill Peters [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Gary - actually skirmishers do have a facing if you check the 3D. But rest assured that we will test it out long before it comes to a change. Of course you knew I would do that anyway ... right? Or are you becoming the series den mother? [:D] Lieutenant Colonel Bill Peters Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come) [url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]
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| Author: | Jeff Mathes [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 2:08 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Bill - Thanks for taking this up for consideration. An improvement is needed in this area and my recommendation seemed the most practical and historical. With regard to enemy cavalry's potential adverse affect on engineers depicted as skirmishers, I would much rather have engineer skirmisher companies able to take shelter in an infantry square than disorder the square with a formed engineer company...since engineers cannot form square. Jeff Mathes Colonel 3. Ligne Regiment 1. Brigade 16. Division V Corps L'Armée du Rhin |
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| Author: | Gary McClellan [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:00 pm ] |
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Bill, I'd have thought you had me figured out by now. My primary mode of looking at things is "yabut". That is to say, "Yeah, but what about..." I figure that's one of the things I'm useful for. To think of the stuff we have to check *L* But, living in 2D as I do, trying to figure out how to "face" Engineeer-skirmishers would be a real pain, assuming it works. Feldmarschall Freiherr Gary McClellan Generalissimus Imperial Austrian Army Portner Grenadier Bn Allied Coalition C-in-C |
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| Author: | clifton seeney [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 7:36 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
My question is this how often will an Allied player use Engineers and for what? What is this Austrians interests in whether or not engineers are in form or unformed it the French who use them more then any one and if you are in a game, a large game not the old Talonsoft games. An Allied player can stand on one side of the river and hit the engineers at will and how can the French get over the bridges that the Allied destroy. Not only costing time but the French must send their Armee piecemeal across. I think they need to play one of them good Russians like I have and see how bad the engineers get beat up! No offense meant just voicing my mind after being beat so many times at Wagram! Col de Art 6/3 II Corps AN Marbot CS |
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| Author: | Kosyanenko [ Wed Feb 20, 2008 9:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
The main concern was that several engineers coys stacked together and working on the bridge suffer badly from artillery. But let's think of it in another fashion. Several hundred men working on a tiny object. Tiny compared to the hex size. If the hexside is 100 meters than it's square is 150 000 square meters. Average river that is crossed in the games is 50-100 meters wide. Let the bridge be 2, even 3 meters wide and you'll have the total square of 100-300 square meters. If there are several hundred men working it gives several men per square meter. If one recalls that average density in line formation is about 4 men per square meter it will bring us to conclusion that more historical is the way we have things now. Moreover, I can't recall a single when the bridge was completely built under fire with no bridgehead on the other side. Both at Beresina and Aspern-Essling French had huge bridgeheads and the bridgebuilders were subject only to long range shelling. Look at this article: http://www.napoleon-series.org/military ... hocin.html For me it describes very well what will happen to those who try to repair a bridge guarded with determination even by a small force. <center>  </center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku General-Mayor Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center> |
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| Author: | Bill Peters [ Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
Guys - for now it cant be done as the P type is a restricted type unit. John is busy on other changes for us at the moment and I dont want to offer this one up without thinking it over. If I were to offer up a change it would be that the "P" type would be a "S" type skirmisher unit (like the independent Prussian companies in Jena) that can self rally. I cant change the code letter from K to S or they lose their pioneer capability. Thus for now ... just repair bridges when they are not being fired on or suffer the consequences. Another thought - put them in Line formation. I think they can still repair in line formation and if so they will suffer less losses. But yes, one Allied member chewed up my pioneers in a recent battle so bad I just pulled them back and gave up on repairing the bridge. He had about 50+ guns available ... Lieutenant Colonel Bill Peters Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come) [url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]
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