Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)
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Waterloo???
https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9762		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  clifton seeney [ Sun May 18, 2008 7:32 am ]
Post subject:  Waterloo???
Monsieur someone please till me how a Prussian Land batt can fight off a French Guard batt with all things equal???

Col de Art 6/3 II Corps AN Marbot CS
Author:  Bill Peters [ Sun May 18, 2008 8:11 am ]
Post subject: 
It actually happened over by Planceoit in the battle. French Young or Middle Gd. was defeated by Landwehr. Scott was in his glory in those days complete with cape and cane.

Colonel Bill Peters
Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20ème légère Brigade de Cavalerie, 13ème Hussar Regiment
HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come)

[url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

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Author:  clifton seeney [ Sun May 18, 2008 1:58 pm ]
Post subject: 
Mesi mon ami then all things were not equal it most be that they out numbered the Guard by 5to 1 ?

Col de Art 6/3 II Corps AN Marbot CS
Author:  Colin Knox [ Sun May 18, 2008 3:38 pm ]
Post subject: 
Hi Cliff
I too have had the Old Guard lose a melee to the farm boys from Prussia. This is purely a product of the way the engine calculates the casualites. If you don't like the width of the random scale there is an optional rule you can tick which reduces the variation (can't recall the name of it but it's there). Which assuming the numbers were in your favour and you attacked in a judicious manner this should result in a higher probability of victory.

So at the end of the day its a cold calculation. I agree the Old Guard probably should not be defeated by the farm boys but that said its a game and s..t happens. [:D] when a random factor is included.

I would recommend you follow the following rule to ensure the best odds in your favour when meleeing with our beloved Old Guard

Attack in column +20%
Attack into the flank +20%
Only have A grade units in your stack +20%
Include a leader +20%

If you do these things and have the optional rule ticked I mentioned vs an E grade unit I am sure you will find you will win every time.

Salute!


General de Brigade Knox
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur (the regaled pheasants)
La Jeune Garde
CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

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Author:  clifton seeney [ Sun May 18, 2008 4:30 pm ]
Post subject: 
Mesi ma General its things like that which makes me want to find a table top game and do some real damange but I would never command the Guard in that game? Who would fear the guard when we all know they can't tack a punch!!!! Who would fear the French when the Guard is just a name ????

Col de Art 6/3 II Corps AN Marbot CS
Author:  D.S. Walter [ Sun May 18, 2008 9:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
Actually to think of the Prussian Landwehr of 1815 as raw recruits fresh from the farms means falling to a recurrent myth. A large part of these men were long-term professional soldiers discharged after 1807 and returning to the colours in 1813. In 1815, they also looked back on two years of campaigning. There were spectacular feats by Landwehr units throughout the campaign of 1815. At Ligny, one battalion withstood several charges by French cavalry, including Guard and heavies.

<center>
[url="http://home.arcor.de/dierk_walter/NWC/2nd_Dragoons.htm"]Image[/url]
Maj. Gen. D.S. "Green Horse" Walter
~ 2nd Dragoons (Royal Scots Greys) ~
2nd (Union) Brigade, Anglo-Allied Cavalry Corps
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~ 3rd (Prince of Wales's) Dragoon Guards ~
[url="http://www.geocities.com/militaireacademie/"]Image[/url]
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Author:  Antony Barlow [ Sun May 18, 2008 11:11 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think Dierk is right about the qualities of the Landwehr in 1815. I'm sure Scott has something to say on that too.[:D] But in game turns they are rated D and E quality and therefore they rout extremely easily and are very easy to beat. Of course they might win some melees but if you fire on them over a few turns a good proportion will rout and the rest will be largely disordered. Then with the few available leaders assisting in rallying routed units you can pick and choose easy melees to finish them off. A sorry sight but all too common in the game...

<center>[url="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.r.barlow/Napoleonic/nap.htm"]Brigadier General Antony Barlow[/url]
~ [url="http://www.geocities.com/anglo_allied_army_stats/Anglo_Allied_Army_Cavalry_Corps.htm"]2nd British (Union) Brigade, Anglo-Allied Cavalry Corps[/url] ~
~ [url="http://www.geocities.com/militaireacademie/dragoons.html"]4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards[/url] ~
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Author:  SLudwig [ Mon May 19, 2008 4:15 am ]
Post subject: 
The Prussian Armee is under rated in these games. The Landwehr pulled off some spetacular actions. They actually were the first Allied units into Liepzig proper and there are plenty accounts of them doing quite well against French line and even cavalry. Landwehr does not equate to militia, Landwehr is the mass levy system and a part of the reforms that Scharnhorst and others did in between 1807 and 1813. Most of these troops were filed in and out of service within the cap set by Napoleon, but all were routinely trained each year or so, so they are by far not raw recruits. Also by the time of Waterloo they had 2 years of straight Campaigns by then. If anything Napoleon's forces maybe over rated a bit. I would be interested to see how things will rate in 1813/14 when it is released. Many of those French troops were quite green and their ratings should reflect that...if not I will be pissed and blame HPS for a Bias!! [}:)]

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General der Infanterie Scott Prinz "Vorwärts" Ludwig von Allenstein-Dennewitz
(Old Windy) (Windbagfrankfurter) (The Mad Prussian) (Herr Windbagenführer)
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Königlich Preußische Armee am Niederrhein
Webmaster & Club Cabinet - Public Relations Officer
Vorwärts Meine Kinder, Vorwärts!!

[url="http://www.prussianarmy.com/"]Königliche Preußische Armee[/url]
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Author:  Colin Knox [ Mon May 19, 2008 8:25 am ]
Post subject: 
But Scott the glorious legions of France had more attractive uniforms and nice perfume so surely they were superior.[:D]

That said I agree with your comments on the Prussian army of 1813 they were quite a formidable opponent for the French by then. They were fired up by emerging german nationalism as indeed you are as well!



General de Brigade Knox
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur (the regaled pheasants)
La Jeune Garde
CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

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Author:  Kosyanenko [ Mon May 19, 2008 9:55 am ]
Post subject: 
Please do not get too much concerned with this event. Try to look at it in a "continous way". If we had our games ran in real-time mode it would take your attacking Guard some time to approach, charge, melee and drive Landwerh away. In a real time mode we could see any of the event in it's proper time. Now if we have discrete time. Each turn is 15 minutes long. Substract 3 minutes for each hex your batallion moved before the melee. I suppose it was at least 2 hexes. Hence 9 minutes left. Defeat of the defending troops mens they fell back immediately or almost immediately after the melee started. But what if they did not? It's unrealistic to think that one Landwerh batallion could defeat one Old Guard batallion. But it would be far as far from the truth to think that Landwerh could not defend it's position for several minutes. In this perspective such a result is nothing but natural.

<center>Image</center>
<center><b>Eyo Imperatorskogo Velichestva Leib-Kirassirskogo polku
General-Lieutenant Anton Valeryevich Kosyanenko
Commander of the Second Army of the West </b></center>
Author:  buffpilot [ Mon May 19, 2008 12:47 pm ]
Post subject: 
Clifton,

Also, keep in mind that the games are not historical on the battalion/battery/squadron level. They were not meant to be. You get the real effects at the Brigade/division/corp levels. It doesn't matter if one Landwher gets lucky and slows up an Old Guard battalion(who probably spent to much time laughing at the Prussian "uniforms" or trying to find a way to attack that wasn't downwind, but I digress...). Look at it over the hour of fighting - did the Old Guard Division dispose of the Prussian peasents?

One pleasent way to accomplish a game is too write a monologue like Nafziger or Chandler. At the end of each hour summerize the events of that hour by Division/Corp. Like,"After spending an inordinate amount of time cleaning their shakos the French Old Guard Division swept away the smelly Prussians to their front and gained the hill. From that point I Corp pivoted off there steadfast iron will to sweep into the Prussia rear and take the day.."

Your next game, try this and have your opponent do it also and compare. But you can't mention anything smaller than a brigade unless something spectacular happened. Example, "The Old Guard 1/1 battalion held off 5,000 poorly clad Prussians." Well that would be expected but you get the drift.

Have fun

Marechal Doug Fuller
Duc de Montmorail et Comte de Hainaut
2e' Grenadiers a' Pied de la Vielle Garde
I Corp Commander
AdN
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Author:  Colin Knox [ Mon May 19, 2008 5:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
Bravo Marechal Fuller. Scott we await your thought[:D][:D][:D][:p][:0][B)]

General de Brigade Knox
Baron de l'Empire
2e Regiment Gardes d'Honneur (the regaled pheasants)
La Jeune Garde
CO. 1er Brigade, III Division Cavalerie Legere, III Corps Armee du Nord
http://www.aspire.co.nz/colinknoxnwc.htm

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Author:  clifton seeney [ Mon May 19, 2008 6:18 pm ]
Post subject: 
Mon ami that is so very true Scott, I was caught up in the moment by the glamour of the movies which has the Old guard as a mighty man with wonderful uniforms and large bear skin caps to make them taller then their 5’9’’.I also forgot to soften the enemy up first before advancing pardon moi! I will endeavor to write after battle reports that should be most interesting.

Col de Art 6/3 II Corps AN Marbot CS
Author:  clifton seeney [ Mon May 19, 2008 6:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
Pardon moi but its strange that none of the old Belgium or Netherland units in 1815 returned to the colors once they hear Vive L' Napoleon song out by the Guard????

Col de Art 6/3 II Corps AN Marbot CS
Author:  Jon Graswich [ Tue May 20, 2008 7:06 am ]
Post subject: 
Don't know if this helps...............

Almost 40 years ago I was playing the old S&T / SPI game USN straight from that months magazine. My U.S. carriers conducted a strike on an outlying island. I carefully had calculated that the Japanese land based aircraft would have to roll first one six and then another six to hole my flight deck.

S. O. B.!!!!!!!!!!

Not that I was upset mind you [:(!]

Not that I still remember it to this day. [V]

Sometimes you get the bear; sometimes the bear gets ...... [8D]



One Bourbon, One Scotch, One Beer,

Brigadier General Jon Graswich
<font color="red">Commander Anglo-Allied Cavalry Corps
Anglo-Allied Army / KMA Webmaster</font id="red">

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