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Night and March Fatigue https://www.wargame.ch/board/nwc/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9863	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Bill Peters [ Sat Jul 05, 2008 9:36 am ]
Post subject:	Night and March Fatigue
The ACW series recently got a rule allowing for Night Fatigue. I am hoping to add this into the series eventually but how about March Fatigue as well? Basically you would fatigue whenver you moved. You would recover at the normal rate if you didnt move and at a faster pace if you do absolutely nothing meaning you dont take losses. Faster pace would be 2x the normal rate. This would simulate troops basically falling out of formation. Resting would be a Command menu choice you would pick. While Resting if suddenly attacked you would be subject to Ambush. This would mean that you are already Disordered for combat. The main use of this Option would be for the LONG battles of over 1 day. And March Fatigue would finally answer the issue of marching all day and still having zero fatigue to show for it. My thinking is 5-10 points per turn. This would mean that you could have anywhere from 20-40 points of fatigue for an hour's worth of marching. Anyway, its something that we might be able to get now that the Night Fatigue code has been done. Not sure how simple it would be for John to do but for the next time after this one I am working on we might be able to add it in. And again, it would be an OPTION. Colonel Bill Peters Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20Ã¨me lÃ©gÃ¨re Brigade de Cavalerie, 13Ã¨me Hussar Regiment HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come) [url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

Author:	Michael Ellwood [ Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:04 am ]
Post subject:
Hi Bill, Yes good option for the longer battles only! I like the idea of increased move but I think that if the x2 march rate is used they march disordered or have a specific march formation that reduces the stacking when using pike/road/path hexes. Better still could we have national march rates! The French were renowned for there march ability and could outmarch all nations. I feel that should be a factor in the longer games as it was in the period eg Salamanca (although there it was the instigator of the defeat!) Maybe have an incremental higher rate of fatigue the more often they march rate? Maybe different fatigue attrition for different nationalities? Maybe even an incremental % loss due to straggling the longer the march rate used - when resting the longer you rest the more stragglers return. Good idea and one campaign games should have available but with risk and penalties accumulating. My 2C Regards Mike Lt Col Mike Ellwood Konig Regt 1 Bde, 22 Div VII Saxon Corps, ADR

Author:	clifton seeney [ Sun Jul 06, 2008 10:11 am ]
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Monsieur that is what I was trying to get French won battles on shoes strings give them the fet points but make it a one sided thing the allies march slower but they won't have the fet points. Night both should have fet points ma point of view! Oh by the way 1806 is so slow that its to many back and forth files it will mess up family and game balance mon ami on the long games! Three files a day should be enough not all day every day! Col de Art 6/3 II Corps AN Marbot CS

Author:	John Sheffield [ Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:23 am ]
Post subject:
Great idea Bill, I like the sound of that for added realism. However wouldn't the help text have to be edited as they refer to the games fatigue as combat fatigue and not being winded which would be the case with the pace of marching. <font color="teal">NOTES: Fatigue values represent the Combat Fatigue of the unit and are not intended to represent the simple physical fatigue of being winded. <u><b>Why does it take so long for units to recover from Fatigue?</b></u> In the game, Fatigue is used to represent combat fatigue, not the physical state of being winded. As such, the physical effects of combat fatigue are felt long term and do not wear off through simple rest. In many Napoleonic War battles, the end of the battle was determined by fatigue and not by losses. In larger battles, commanders had to be careful to rotate their fighting units and not commit any one force too long to battle. Having higher Fatigue recovery rates would permit the unrealistic ability for commanders to rest units for short periods of time and then recommit them to battle, something that was not common historically.</font id="teal"> I think this text is included in the help files for all the games. <font color="orange">Major John Sheffield 1st Btn/91 Regiment of Foot <font color="white"> [Argyllshire Highlanders]</font id="white"> 6th British Brigade/4th Infantry Division/<b> II CORPS / </b></font id="orange"><b><font color="red">ANGLO-ALLIED ARMY.</font id="red"></b> <font color="yellow"> "Among these respectable warriors, the Scotch [Scots] deserve to be particularly commemorated; and this honourable mention, is due to their discipline, their mildness, their patience, their humanity, and their bravery without example." "On the 16th and 18th of June 1815, their valour was displayed in a manner most heroic." </font id="yellow"> <font color="red">Viscount Vanderfosse.</font id="red">

Author:	Antony Barlow [ Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:32 am ]
Post subject:
Good idea Bill. It would certainly add something to the long scenarios on the big maps. <center>[url="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.r.barlow/Napoleonic/nap.htm"]Brigadier General Antony Barlow[/url] ~ [url="http://www.geocities.com/anglo_allied_army_stats/Anglo_Allied_Army_Cavalry_Corps.htm"]2nd British (Union) Brigade, Anglo-Allied Cavalry Corps[/url] ~ ~ [url="http://www.geocities.com/militaireacademie/dragoons.html"]4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards[/url] ~ </center>

Author:	Jeff Bardon [ Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:31 am ]
Post subject:
Because fatigue in the series is designed to simulate the effects of combat, I would not use this option. If, there were a way use fatigue for physical weariness and add a separate statistic to measure the elan, or fighting spirit of a unit, then I would favor such a rule. Elan could be where unit morale is taken into account, e.g if 25% of a brigade is casualties then even comparatively fresh battalions in that parent unit would suffer a hit to their elan value. MarÃ©chal Jeff Bardon 1ere Division de Cavalerie Legere I Corps, AdN

Author:	pacowork [ Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:32 am ]
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<font color="red"><font size="6">Great idea!</font id="size6"></font id="red"> IMO, however, it should be applied to any scenario that covers more than 8 hours of fighting. The "blitzkrieg" tactics that so many complain of (And, yes, I know that I am one of the leading practioners[;)] of those tactics) are rooted in the fact that in our games there is no penalty for putting your entire army in motion from the outset. Why keep a reserve force in place when you can march from one end of the battlefield to the other and arrive fresh as a daisy after a four-hour force march?[:0] Once a player has to factor in the effect of marching his troops for 6 hours straight, the "foot cavalry" races should begin to disappear. Regards, Paco <i>MarÃ©chal M. Francisco Palomo Prince d'Essling, Grande Duc d'Abrantes et Comte de Marseille Commandant - Division de Cavalerie de la Vieille Garde</i>

Author:	Jonathan Thayer [ Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:47 pm ]
Post subject:
I like the idea of march fatigue. I also think that fatigue should have greater influence on fighting ability, at least offensively. To often units fight long past a point where the wear and tear of combat would render the unit totally ineffective. This might could be accomplished without any engine work, just a change in parameters. I am of the opinion that any unit with red fatigue should not be able to conduct offensive actions. The penalty for red fatigue could be increased to the point where it is pointless to advance such a unit. Marechal Jonathan Thayer Commandante Moyenne Garde Duc de Saalfeld et Prince de Friedland 1/10/III Armee du Nord jonathanthayer@bellsouth.net

Author:	Richard [ Tue Jul 29, 2008 2:00 am ]
Post subject:
In Age of Rifles units could move a certain amount without gaining fatigue (green), but could move further (ie. forced marching) but would suffer a fatigue penalty. I'd suggest the following: 1./ Units that used less than 2/3 of their normal allowance wouldn't gain fatigue. 2./ Units that moved more than 2/3 would gain some fatigue (day as well as night marching) 3./ Units in column on roads would have increased movement allowance, but would gain extra fatigue if forced marching. 4./ Units in line would be unable to force march, and so would not incur fatigue. 5./ Units that force marched for more than two turns in a row would suffer straggler losses as well as additional fatigue. 6./ It would also be useful if some combat losses were counted as stragglers, which would gradually return to the unit once it was resting (ie. stationary, more than 5 hexes from the enemy and not under fire). <b>Since casualties in these games tend to be higher than historically, perhaps as much as 50% of losses might actually be stragglers?</b> This would allow fire factors to be increased, would mean that units wouldn't be able to stay in contact with the enemy for so long, and would encourage players to pull units back from the front line to rest. Lt.Col. Rich White 4th Cavalry Brigade Cavalry Corps Anglo-Allied Army

Author:	Bill Peters [ Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:32 am ]
Post subject:
Force marching should not be allowed where you are less than 12 hexes or so from a known enemy unit. That would stop folks from force marching around the flank of a unit to attack it in a future turn. If you force march you should not be able to attack in other words. And the distance penalty should be there too. Colonel Bill Peters Armee du Rhin - V Corps, Cavalerie du V Corps, 20Ã¨me lÃ©gÃ¨re Brigade de Cavalerie, 13Ã¨me Hussar Regiment HPS Napoleonic Scenario Designer (Eckmuhl, Wagram, Jena-Auerstaedt and ... more to come) [url="http://www.fireandmelee.net"]Fire and Melee Wargame site[/url]

Author:	dean beecham [ Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:08 am ]
Post subject:
A Big Yes from me .. <font color="red">MarÃ©chal</font id="red"> <font color="red">BEECHAM</font id="red"> La Commandeur, II Corps ADN Prince d` Istria et Comte d` Arles La Jeune Garde "Toujours fÃ©roce,jamais Ã©tourdi"

Author:	Richard [ Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:33 am ]
Post subject:
I agree Bill with your comments on forced marching in proximity to the enemy. In that case should units be able to use road column movement within 12 hexes of known enemy forces? But I expect this is something that might be hard to code in. Lt.Col. Rich White 4th Cavalry Brigade Cavalry Corps Anglo-Allied Army

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