American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

MHO on Artillery Capture rules:

I think the artillery should like wagons switch sides when captured. It would be still uncrewed but wouldn't act as a spotter like it does now or keep triggering popup ever time someone marched over them.

I also think that the player should get a small amount of VP for spiking enemy guns. Right now capturing guns is useless unless you know you are going to hold the terrain they are in by end of battle. So there is no benefit other than denial of use to enemy. The enemy on the other hand can agressively use his artillery knowing even if crews are killed and guns overrun by end of battle it will have no affect. Giving VP for spiking can be justified bases that some guns were immediately hauled off and some were badly damaged as well as spiked.

If the guns could have separate crew counters would be a really great enhancement to the game.


Regarding Victory Hexes - while most games they are very artificial sometimes they are needed to represent areas that have value other than being good terrain. Pittsburg Landing hex is one. It's loss cuts off the Union army from its supplay source and communications. Its loss would have a profound effect on army morale. In Gettysburg Cashtown represents the Confederate armies supply source, retreat route, and line of communications. Westminister would be the Union's equivalent.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
III Corps, AoM (CSA)

Artillery, what a fun topic! I also have thoughts about the capturing [:)]

My line of thought goes like this:
An Army has an inherent worth. The bigger it is the more it can lose. I see Artillery as matariel which can be lost. If you possess it, you have it's potential benefit...spotting, firing, ZOC and etc. If captured from you in good condition, the full potential benefit/points leave you, spiked being of partial benefit, and destroyed is no benefit. To possess it is to have it in your zone of control or crewed. To use it, it must be in a crewed state.

If it was yours in the beginning and you haven't lost it then it's inherent worth is still yours and the victory budget reflects nothing. If it is yours and you change it's condition, you lose points. If you lose it you then lose points according what condition it is in when lost. You get it back, you get points back according to what condition it is in. If it isn't yours in the beginning and you find it, you add points to your victory budget according to what condition it is in when you possess it.

I see artillery as a thing that just so happens to be in one side's possesion at the beginning of a battle. An interesting scenario could then be to have a few batteries up on a hill uncrewed and unpossessed by either side. First to them and to crew them, gets the victory budget points and the ability to blast away with any tube that can be used [8D]

Cheers all,







Lt.R.A.Sickbert,
1st Brigade, 2nd Division
V Corps
Army of the Potomac

I have been working on various ideas, but they will not be ready anytime soon.

Randl-- Just curious, when the <i>unpossessed</i> arty was captured on top of the hill, would there also be cassions and horses ready? [8D]

To all- In short, the current variation is certainly not perfect and the spotting issue has been addressed and corrected, BUT it is a meaningful feature "as is". If you disagree, it is optional and you can always play as before.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

[quote]<i>Originally posted by Rich Walker</i>
<br />I have been working on various ideas, but they will not be ready anytime soon.

Randl-- Just curious, when the <i>unpossessed</i> arty was captured on top of the hill, would there also be cassions and horses ready? [8D]
---SNIP

I feel there would only be cassions.

If the Arty started a scenario in possession of a side then it would have cassions and horses in attendance. However, if it were uncrewed setting upon a hill it might be fair to consider that the inanimate caissons would still be close by but that the horses were not. The horses would have left with their handlers or ran away as they were untended or they were perhaps killed by the fire which led to the abandonment of the pieces. It might be argued that in the course of capture and twenty minutes or so, that horses could have been sent forward and the pieces limbered. Particularly if the pieces were not in an enemy zone of control in which case it might allow for the new crew to limber up relatively unmolested. That would be simplest, re-crew means re-horsed also. I don't think horses would be that close though, so alternatively, it could take one turn to re-crew to be able to fire and rotate and such and two turns before one is able to limber and move with horses assigned to the task.

I kind of like the one to get ready, two to go. Do let me say this though...I am very pleased with what you all have done in the HPS series and I thank you very much! This kind of tavern talk is great fun but if you change little, I'll not shed too big a tear in my beer and pretzels, as I'll be too busy in a HPS Campaign battle trying to get my butt out of the sling...again [:D]

Lt.R.A.Sickbert,
1st Brigade, 2nd Division
V Corps
Army of the Potomac

Further to earlier discussion on this thread, can I have opinions on this?

My enemy captures my guns---My enemy spikes my guns---I recapture my guns---I re-crew my guns---I try to move my guns(to get away from enemy units arriving soon nearby)

BUT: Spiked guns cannot move?!!!

I thought spiking involves wrecking the barrels? Surely the limbers & horses are intact? crews are provided by the re-crewing unit?

It came as a very nasty shock, wasting 3 turns & 450 Cavalry troopers to re-crew 18 Horse Artillery Guns after what was possibly my worst ever 1st turn (Don't laugh). I don't want to play anymore [:(]



Capt. Jim Wilkes.
2nd Brigade, Cavalry Division, XX Corps.
AoC. U.S.A.

Hi, Captain,
I think most times nobody bothered with spiked guns until the winner salvaged them after the battle. Everybody had more important things to worry about at the time than cannon that wouldn't work. Maybe someday they will implement an option where you can unspike a spiked gun, but I doubt that that is a priority right now.

A little off the subject, I always wondered why the French cavalry didn't do something about the guns they kept overrunning at Waterloo, only to have the gunners come out after they retreated and shoot them up some more. Couldn't they have thrown a lasso over the barrel and drag it back with them or something?

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA

"A little off the subject, I always wondered why the French cavalry didn't do something about the guns they kept overrunning at Waterloo, only to have the gunners come out after they retreated and shoot them up some more. Couldn't they have thrown a lasso over the barrel and drag it back with them or something?"

They're French, no more explination needed.


MG D. Groce
AoP
V Corps
2nd Division
"Into the breach"

Iam kinda upset about the spiked guns,,,
Iam in battle at the seige of jackson,,,
yankee arty can beat the rebs into submission if left to fire at will,,, so i decided to take a few guns out of the way,,,
my trustie calv made there way thur the lines and took control of 16 guns and after a sharp counterattack we managed to spike all 16.
but all 600 calv were lost. no victory pts for me but a ton for my yankee counterpart,,, the only bright spot for me is that 16 guns wont fire at my lines,,,Iam still trying to figure out was it worth it. I think i should get some sort of credit for my losses,,,he may get the guns back but not until they are back from the repair shop.

BG. VANNADA
HEADQUATERS:
2nd INFT.DIV.
2ND CORPS
AOA

http://www.geocities.com/heydreck/AOA.h ... 3437?20075

A little off the subject, I always wondered why the French cavalry didn't do something about the guns they kept overrunning at Waterloo, only to have the gunners come out after they retreated and shoot them up some more. Couldn't they have thrown a lasso over the barrel and drag it back with them or something?

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA
[/quote]

Now Waterloo I know about! The French Cavalry had a very bad day at Waterloo. Sure enough, they managed to overrun a number of Guns when they attacked the Anglo-Allied line but the crews mostly managed to escape into nearby squares. The French attack was very badly coordinated, lacking both Infantry and Artillery support to open up the squares or secure the captured guns. I can tell you that if you try dragging a 9 pounder field piece from horseback with a rope? you are going nowhere! especially on the muddy ground at Waterloo that day.
There was little that Cavalry could do about a formed square either, only the French Lancers had means to reach over the hedge of Bayonets and skewer an exposed target, but even then it's probably easier said than done. Likewise, gun crews could take some shelter from Cavalry by hiding under their Guns. Again, Lancers had the means to stick them in their prone position on the ground, but sabre armed Cavalry were limited in their options once the shock of the charge is expended.


Capt. Jim Wilkes.
2nd Brigade, Cavalry Division, XX Corps.
AoC. U.S.A.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by heydreck</i>
<br />Iam kinda upset about the spiked guns,,,
Iam in battle at the seige of jackson,,,
yankee arty can beat the rebs into submission if left to fire at will,,, so i decided to take a few guns out of the way,,,
my trustie calv made there way thur the lines and took control of 16 guns and after a sharp counterattack we managed to spike all 16.
but all 600 calv were lost. no victory pts for me but a ton for my yankee counterpart,,, the only bright spot for me is that 16 guns wont fire at my lines,,,Iam still trying to figure out was it worth it. I think i should get some sort of credit for my losses,,,he may get the guns back but not until they are back from the repair shop.

BG. VANNADA
HEADQUATERS:
2nd INFT.DIV.
2ND CORPS
AOA

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I agree. There should be an award of VP to player for spiking. Without it the enemy player can be very agressive with their artillery since the risk is minimal in many scenarios where you know the other player can't hold territory due to scenario conditions.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
III Corps, AoM (CSA)

I hadn't thought about it before, but I also agree. You ought to get some points for spiking the guns.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA

Points are awarded for capturing spiked guns, but not for the act alone. Put simply, the reward is simply to prevent them from firing in the future.

Now, if you decide to suicide troops to spike, that's your decision.

Frankly, it sounds like you want points for bravely killing your own troops in a suicide charge. Personally, I think a court-marshal would be more appropriate.

Come on! LOL


Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Walker</i>
<br />Points are awarded for capturing spiked guns, but not for the act alone. Put simply, the reward is simply to prevent them from firing in the future.

Now, if you decide to suicide troops to spike, that's your decision.

Frankly, it sounds like you want points for bravely killing your own troops in a suicide charge. Personally, I think a court-marshal would be more appropriate.

Come on! LOL


Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

it wasnt a suicide charge at all,,,it was a carefully planed move in which my calv moved into positions to attack his supply trains or arty if the oppurtunity presented itself, this was done on seperate sides of the field,, but he happened on one of my units so i had no choice but to attack the best choice of targets,,little did i know he had calv in the area and was able to hem me in,,,now the plan didnt work so well on that side but on the other it worked fine,,all in all 40 pices of arty and 1 supply wagon filled with goodies at the cost of around 700 calv,,,600 in one spot,,,

but iam still think there should be some reward for smashing that many arty in one blow.

BG. VANNADA
HEADQUATERS:
2nd INFT.DIV.
2ND CORPS
AOA

http://www.geocities.com/heydreck/AOA.h ... 3437?20075

Well, as computer generals, we are all guilty of risky ventures. Ventures that seemed sound at the time, but few historical generals would have done the same. And to be sure, the computer isn't capable of sending scouts (individual spies), or questioning local inhabitants, etc... So we must resort to moves that involve great risk. Sometimes they even work.

But for now, we will all just have to be content with the fact that spiked arty will prevent them from firing, and that if occupied by the enemy at the end of the game, they will be worth 1/2 VP points.

Had Ney merely spiked the overrun Allied arty, Waterloo may well have resulted in a French victory. In short, just the act of spiking would have been enough for victory. No need to haul them back, or stand near them.

But having rambled on for a bit, these comments are always useful for future ideas. Sometimes we (the designers) can be swayed.





Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

On the other hand, spiked artillery no longer fire, so they are out of the equation. Makes the rest of the battle easier for the other side.

In a (well, my [:D]) perfect world we'd be able to recrew captured artillery and use it, or at least haul it away (maybe be able to recrew/make mobile captured arty but without firing ability?). But as usual, each possible solution brings its own share of problems that will then need solutions...

Maj Gen Sean Turner
3rd Cavalry Division, "The Bishop's Men"
I Corps
Army of Alabama