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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:55 am 
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Definitely going to be some tactical education on this rule change. I suspect I'll mess up and not limber and run when I should, thinking I'll be able to retreat by prolong, or, since Murphy seems to be a member of my tactical staff, I'll limber up and get blown to pieces...[B)][:D]



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General Jeff Laub
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:59 am 
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Hi, Bill,

Sounds to me like all your observations are legitimate points. In addition, you probably ought to be able to retire by prolongue in a field as well as clear terrain. Still, I have read of only one occasion in the war when it was used, Bigelow's 9th Mass Bty at Gettysburg. There might be an occasion in the game where it might come in handy even in it's present form, such as retreating from an enemy zoc to another enemy zoc where limbering and moving would be less advantageous. But I agree with everything you said except moving, unlimbering and firing for artillery.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:46 pm 
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Bill,

I never recieved any email, so what ACW group did you email?

20 seconds???, I hope you meant 20 min.

Frankly, John wanted the limitations so not to encourage gamey blitzkreig tactics. But this is just version one, so don't think changes can't come.

If the arty is A or B, most will rally in time to fire on their next turn.

As for your unit not moving, I have no test file.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:25 am 
How does this rule work in phased play for those of us who can't stand turn based?

No blitzkrieg tactics to worry about it phased play, but do we have to suffer with the same anti-blitz limits on prolongue?

Regards,

Brig. Gen. Alan Lynn
2nd Div, II Corps, AoA
CSA Chief of Staff

God Bless <><


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:50 am 
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I wouldn't believe 20 sec unless I saw, not read it.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 12:38 pm 
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Rich Walker,

Gonna side with Bill on this one[:0] hehehe...

Here is the quote from the Napoleon Series Bill is referring to:

"Dear Bill
Good to have some sensible questions. Yes the French certainly and probably other countries fire the guns while attacked to the prolonge.

When we reconstructed this. It was decided not to follow this practice as our horses still had much to learn about the detonation of cannon and for safety, no wanting the gunners hurt by a premature departure by the limber and horses.

I can answer you question if I knew how it was used in ACW. I expect the answer is yes. Looking at the US manuals of the ACW period, they take their guidance from French and British Manuals that learnt from the practice in the Napoleonic Wars.

"The concept is that the battery would fire and use the ropes to pull the battery back as well as the natural recoil of the guns."

The answer is YES that was the practice.

"Now a second question: how long would it take for them to fall back 100 meters?"
We retired the guns on a number of occassions over a distance of 50 m. This took less than 20 seconds (estimate). The gun was there and then it was not. We will next time time this for you. The gunners were left in the wake with all the equipment to carry. So the guns are safe but the poor gunners have the ramrod, spong, trail spikes, bucket, ammunition and bricole ropes etc... to amble as best they could after the guns.

Ammunition if operated with the ammunition trail box (coffret) on the limber then this is not too great a burden but if the ammunition box was placed 8-10 m behind to the left of the gun then this would have to be moved by 2 or 4 gunners.

I hope that in part answers your question.

Stephen"

I think the battery could withdraw by prolong and still fire. I think full fire effect myself. I would advocate allowing batteries to unlimber and fire half as well. It didn't take twenty minutes to bring a battery into action. I can dig up the manuals from online to see what the time was, but that will be awhile since I'm swamped with other stuff.

It would be nice if an action point system were in place so units could do various things within a turn in any order a player wished. Assign 30 seconds to each action point and then set up allowable actions by that scale. You could set up multipliers to take into account that poorly trained troops, or disrupted troops may take longer to do something. With all the manuals available it should be very simple to program a game to handle the concept.

Maybe someday.

MajGen Al 'Ambushed' Amos
3rd "Amos' Ambushers" Bde, Cavalry Division, XX Corps, AoC
The Union Forever! Huzzah!


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:59 pm 
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Your attempted hex is not straight back. Straight back is 13,12 to 12,11

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 6:19 pm 
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I think what is confusing you is the differences in the nappy and acw hex system. One is on spine the other off spine. ACW is 180 or three hexs front and 180 three hexes back. Straight back is straight back. It's very clear to me!

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
<br />Rich - straight back to me means one of two rear hexes. The hex I tried to go to is in one of the unit's two rear hexes.

Anyway, its a confusing rule which should have been better documented. Just too much left out that the gamer has to discover on his own.

Col. Bill Peters, The Boise Rifles, II Corps Artillery, AoA
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 11:22 pm 
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Sounds like guns should be able to retire by prolong, without getting disrupted, and then fire (at normal effectiveness) in the same turn.

Brig. Gen. Rich White
3 Brig. Phantom Cav Div
III Corps ANV


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:12 am 
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Just got my Chickamauga game, so I'll be trying this out in the very near future!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 6:29 am 
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I'm working on a tweak, but the main advantage of the current version would only apply to single phase play. It's attracts only one shot from opportunity fire, instead of 4 for the same movement.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 6:48 am 
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I like that prolong has finally been added, however, I must agree about the disruption. Even firing at 1/2 for the next turn seems a good compromise if there should be a penalty of sorts. I would think, though, that prolong would be more of a "time" consideration than of bumbling around moving all the other gear, or the crew so tired that they couldn't fire it, or whatever is the rationale, but disrupted? Doesn't seem worth the trouble. I think I would only want to prolong a gun if doing so would improve firing position. If it was in danger of being reached, I would just limber and move it. In fact if I only had to go one hex to improve firing position I would also limber, move, and unlimber...so I loose a turn firing...It wouldn't be disrupted such that it may be more than one turn to recover.

How about allowing it to move one hex for free unless up or down hill. I could see an elevation change disrupting it, and on the flat, perhaps moving it a second hex and hence disrupted might be an option.

I recall hearing about this rule proposed but if there was discussion about it, I missed it. Not trying to be a Monday morning quarterback...it is A GOOD FEATURE, I think, but not how it has come down. Or at least I doubt I would use it nor think of a circumstance where I would.

Shazam! Did I just agree with Bill Peters. Seriously, you raise good points Bill and your summary of how it works will have to suffice in the lack of the usual documentation all in one place for added features until it eventually gets into the manual if at all.




[quote]<i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
<br />Included in the new Chickamauga game is a Artillery Prolong rule.

Here is how it works:

1. During your Movement phase/Player turn you can back up a battery from one clear hex to another clear hex. You may go downhill when doing this but not uphill..

Colonel Tom Ciampa
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XIV Corps, AoC
Games: TS/BG: AN, BR, CH, GB, SH - HPS: AT, CTH, GB, OZK, SH, VK


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 5:52 pm 
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I tested Vicksburg and it works. I would need to test your file to understand why your having a problem.

The rule is not currently mentioned in the manual, except Chickamauga, because the rule wasn't intended for release until after Chickamauga.



Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:01 am 
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Sorry for the tardy response. I think I emailed you separately that I found the problem...kinda dumb. I didn't take the "retire" litteraly and wasn't trying to move it to the rear. Then when I did realize it is intended for retreat, I still couldn't because I think I probably was trying to move uphill or perhaps into non-clear terrain. In any event, my apologies and explanation to all. I tried it again doing it correctly on the flat in clear terrain and it worked and it was disrupted. So it worked perfectly. I see the post about about a tweak. I sure hope the tweak is to forgot the disrupted result, at least for one hex. In miniature games prolong is not restricted to just retiring. You can move a very short manhandled distance in any direction perhaps an inch or stand width. In my battle of VKS I just unlimbered, moved one hex to the side, limbered and was all ready to fire the next turn just as I would have been if I prolonged but not disrupted. Thanks for the tweak (tweek?) or whatever.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Walker</i>
<br />I tested Vicksburg and it works. I would need to test your file to understand why your having a problem.

The rule is not currently mentioned in the manual, except Chickamauga, because the rule wasn't intended for release until after Chickamauga.



Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Colonel Tom Ciampa
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2nd Bgde,1st Cav
XIV Corps, AoC
Games: TS/BG: AN, BR, CH, GB, SH - HPS: AT, CTH, GB, OZK, SH, VK


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:29 pm 
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Bill,

You know John, you never ask for the moon. John considers a forward prolonge to be arty acting as mini tanks. The tweak should be available soon. I've tested two versions.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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