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 Post subject: MDF Poll
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:16 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:52 am
Posts: 835
Location: USA
How many here play <u><i><b>ONLY</b></i></u> MDF?

How many play both?

How many refuse to play MDF?

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:17 pm 
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Posts: 356
Location: Russell, Kansas USA
If it's Manual Defensive Fire, I play both. <salute>

<center> <font color="red"><h3>
Major General Tom Phillips, CSA
The Brus Horse Artillery
</font id="red"><font color="orange">I Corps Cavalry/Army of Alabama</h3>
</font id="orange"></center>


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:40 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:00 am
Posts: 444
Location: USA
Dear Rich Walker,

I only play single phase play in multi-player games as that is the only way you can move fire and melee during each players turn. All one-on-one player games I play multi-phase play (MDF on). I find the defensive fire in single phase games so flawed it tilts the game in favor of the attacker (unhistoricaly). If every unit were able to fire defensively at the end of the single phase turn, that did not perform opportunity fire, I might play single phase. But there is still the panzer tactics during multiple melees. I require the embeded melee rule be used, but even that is flawed. I would rather see some spend time on making multi-phase play possible with multi-player games, giving each player the full move-fire-melee phases when they have the file. While I am at it be able to assign commands to players as in internet play would be nice too.

Lt Gen Joseph C. Mishurda


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Lt General Joseph C. Mishurda,
"Killer Angels"
VI Corps, AoS, USA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:10 pm 
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Posts: 335
Location: USA
I prefer not to use MDF, but I am adaptable.

Honestly, if MDF didn't require the silly rule that you can only change formation right at the start of the turn, I'd be more willing to use it.

(mostly silly because playing mostly in single-turn, I'm always forgetting that I have to do any formatno changes first off.)

Major General Gary McClellan
1st Division, XXIII Corps
AoO,USA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:41 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 17, 2007 1:01 pm
Posts: 280
Location: USA
Hmmm, off the top of my head...

Semi-phased I guess:

Offensive movement.

Defensive opportunity fire during movement.

Full Defensive fire phase, 50% (or some %) if already fired opportunity fire.

Offensive fire (best would be at % power of movement points remaining, e.g. if used 1/2 movement, shoot at 50% power)

Melee only at end of turn (no panzers).

...


Lt. Thompson
4/3/VIII AoS


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 3:50 pm 
I prefer to play with MDF on. I believe playing with it on limits the opportunities to exploit the game engine for an advantage. Gen. Nick Kunz is entirely responsible for teaching me the merits of playing with MDF on. For reasons I don't really care to enumerate it seems more historical to me.

I am playing less recently. I am not a very good player PBEM because I am not very smart but I also find the experience deviates so far from what I have read about how battles were conducted at the time that it is no longer fun for me to play.

Good luck improving the game engine. My hunch is that any improvements you try to implement won't pass muster here. What a shame.

Brig. Gen. Dale Henken
First Divsion
XVI Corps
Army Of The Tennessee


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:20 pm 
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Location: USA
The next release will most likely include an update that will not allow further fire and movement after melee. So all movement and fire will take place before melee. This will eliminate exploitations as a result of successful melees. <i>At least until the next turn.</i> You will not be able to change your mind about a melee due to the result of a bad previous melee. Only pre-plotted melees will be allowed and there will be no changes.

The three things that bug me the most about MDF are:
1) takes too much time
2) A unit can't change formation once movement is started
3) Units can dance around the enemy without being fired on. (this is number one for me, how can this be more historical??)

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:24 pm 
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Hi, Rich,

I play both, but mostly multiphase for the reasons listed by others. If John can implement the end of turn melee phase, that will make single phase more palatable. But something ought to be done so that units that don't get to fire at all in opportunity fire get to shoot at the end of the turn. Ideally, every time a phasing unit targets a defending unit in its frontal hexsides for offensive fire, that unit ought to automatically fire defensively before the offensive fire is resolved. But the end of turn melee is at least a step in the right direction.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:41 pm 
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Hi Mike,

I think the new update will dramatically change the game.

But consider what I said about MDF. It's very possible for a unit to start a turn directly in front of an enemy, move a few hexes around, fire and melee into the rear or flank of that same enemy and never get fired upon.

Please Please tell me how that is better than the high probabilty that under simiar circumstances, that same unit would in fact be fired upon (possibly multiple times)in single phase play.

Granted, neither is perfect and that's why players have a choice, but that dancing around concept kills me!!!

Sorry, I'm staying from the purpose of this thread's topic


Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:45 pm 
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BTW, I don't think it's historical that every unit should fire every turn.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 6:57 pm 
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Posts: 771
Location: USA
<font color="beige"><b>Rich,

I hardly ever play MDF, basically for the reasons you listed and I think the change you are suggesting will be the fix for blitz attacks in single phase.

When introduced is this going to be a choice on the Optional Rules Dialog or will it be such a significant change that the single phase will only operate with melee at the end.

If you need a guinea pig for play testing give me a yell. </b></font id="beige">

<center><font color="blue"><b>Maj.Gen. R.A.Weir</b></font id="blue">
<font color="yellow">THE CALVERT LINE</font id="yellow">
Image
<b>First--III--AoA CSA</b></center>


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 8:06 pm 
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Posts: 392
Location: USA
I play at least two-thirds MDF phased play. The main reason is the totally whacko defensive fire in single-turn play.

I would not consider it kindly if MDF were phased out. I would probably not buy any new games where only single-turn play was offered. Sorry.

Sincerely,
Brig Gen Dwight McBride
2nd Brigade/2nd Division
I Corps/AOP/USA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:00 am 
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Joined: Tue May 22, 2001 8:05 pm
Posts: 851
Location: Panhandle of Texas
I play exclusively with MDF off. However Rich you mention units in MDF being able to dance around without being fired upon at all but it has been my experience that this can happen with single phase play also and this I find most frustrating.

General Mark Nelms
6/3/IX/AoO
"Blackhawk Brigade"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:27 am 
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Posts: 180
Location: Canada
Rich: The situation you are describing about enemy units 'dancing around' friendly units does not come up that often if you have your flanks protected. I find most players simply close on friendly units as quick as they can. Sure, enemy units try to outflank you, but single turn play does not fix that or prevent it as presently written.

I only play with MDF on and have abandoned single turn play years ago. You have not described any of the MANY abuses of single turn play which drive me absolutely crazy. You say it drives you nuts when a friendly unit does not fire at all on an enemy unit 'dancing around'. Well, I have seen plenty of that in single turn play and WORSE. How about these situations that I have seen time and time again in single turn play.

1.) My friendly unit does not fire at all on the enemy unit 'that is dancing around' and closing in on me. In fact it fires on a harmless enemy unit on higher ground five hexes away.

2.) It doesn't fire at all on the very unit that is meleeing it to death!!!

3.) It fires on an enemy unit four hexes away and gets maybe "1 hit". The enemy unit then closes and fires and hits "20" men. Good God, this defies every concept I have ever read about tactical Civil War Combat.

I would love to have single turn play WORK. It sure would make email play a lot better. My main complaint about MDF play though is the inability to change formation whenever I like. If that one thing was fixed I would be quite happy with MDF play.

But, OK, if I wanted to get Single Turn play working this is what would have to change to win me over.

1.) Friendly units fire on all units that are threats to them. ie: units closing in on them with the probable intention of melee

2.) FULL defensive fire. Where does this half fire nonsense come from?? Do the bullets move at half speed??? Fire is fire. Increase chance of ammo depletion? Sure.

3.) Friendly units DO NOT fire on ridiculous enemy targets five hexes away that are no threat to them.

If the above things were corrected I would be an immediate convert to single turn play.



Bg. General Gilbert Collins
Army of Alabama
III/I/2nd Brigade


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:34 am 
I refuse to play in single turn. It's horrid. Abhorrent. <Insert long string of negative adjectives here.>

Forcing all melees to the end of the turn would be a big help, but there is still the problem of inconsistent defensive fire during the turn-based play, and on top of that the defensive fire seems quite weak in comparison.

I would be willing to use single turn play if it wasn't so unhistoric. I play only in phased play because I feel it is the more historically accurate way to play. Yes, you can move around a flank perhaps, but the same thing can be done in turn play, and since I never know if a unit will fire in turn play when a unit moves nearby (and if it does fire it is so weak as to offer little chance of disrupting an enemy unit).

Also there is the matter of artillery ammo - if single turn units fire at 50% on defense, but can fire multiple times, I am in essence losing even MORE ammo than necessary, and since so many Reb "batteries" are broken into 1 or 2 gun sections, I would be in essence wasting tons of ammo by firing 1/2 of a gun at full ammo cost, multiple times and with no effect, thus rendering the majority of my artillery useless. At least in phased play I know my small guns will only fire once if I have them deployed and that they will fire at full effect. I'd rather spend one ammo point at full effect than waste 7 ammo points from a single gun for the equivalent fire of .5 guns each time.

I also think MDF play should allow us to change formation at any time as long as there are points to do so.

What we need is a blend of both systems.

If you force all melees to the end of a turn, and allow all defenders the chance to fire during a turn, then I might consider playing it. If, however, future releases are turn only and drastic improvements are not made, I'm in the camp with Dwight - I won't be buying any new games from HPS until the turn based play is improved, and improved drastically.

Also, a new option is needed for ADF for medium range on infantry. Artillery can be set to short, medium, or long, but infantry can only be set to point-blank or fire at anything that moves no matter how far away it might be. If you added a middle ground it would improve results for defensive fire in turned based play by limiting the amount of "wasted" shots at max range. I hate seeing an emeny 5 hexes away get shot at for 1 casualty, then continue moving right up next to one of my units and never be fired upon again. But if you set the infantry to short range only they won't fire at anything until point blank range, which is also a waste.

Regards,

Brig. Gen. Alan Lynn
CSA Chief of Staff
3rd Bgde, 3rd Cav Div, II Corps, AoA

God Bless <><


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