American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

If I have a stack of six 2 tube batteries and within their LOS are two 4 gun batteries with each of those 4 gun batteries occupying a different hex, am I better off firing all 12 of my tubes in unison at one of those batteries or should I fire 6 tubes in unison at one battery and the other 6 tubes in unison at the other battery? Is 6 enough or does an additional 6 increase my odds of a kill?

Lt Gen Ned Simms
1/1/VIII/AoS/USA
Blood 'n Guts hisself, a land lovin' pirate. Show me some arty tubes and we'll charge 'em.
VMI Class of '00

Gen. Simms Suh,

Stop on over to the Chickasaw Bayou and we can discuss this matter over some drinks. [:)][:D]

Respectfully,
Maj. Gen. Gery Bastiani
III Corp
AotM CSA



"If there is a shell or bullet over there destined for us, it will find us" - General James Longstreet

If we had a chart/table of the different artillery types, and expectancy of hits at different ranges, we could make our own firing decisions.

If there is <u>synergy</u> with increasing number of cannons firing that alters hit expectancy, that would need to be included.
(2guns+2guns=6FirePower)
This should also mean that after a certain point, that adding more cannons will reach a point of <u>diminishing returns</u>.
(4g+12g=14FP)

I cannot believe that the game designers did not construct such a chart, but it does not seem to have been published for the hoi polloi.[:o)][8][?]

But maybe it has been worked out and published on the internet somewhere.
Now is the time to come forth and inform the rest of us!!! [:p]

BG Ross McDaniel
2nd Bde, 3rd Div, III Corps, AoG, CSA

When asked "Is it worth risking my life to defend my property?", I ask "Is it worth risking your life to take away my property?" ---- "One cannot have a right to life without the right to defend it with deadly force." - Bruce Montague.
You don't have to go through life snarling, but it's knowing that you're willing to fight that keeps the other dogs out of your dish. -- anonymous
"Find out just what the people will submit to and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." - Frederich Douglass

As I understand it the only advantage to firing in stacks is to limit the chance for opportunity fire for your opponent when playing turn mode. The game engine executes each unit's fire seperately then adds the results together for the report.

If you look at the pdt table you can determine the fire factors for your unit at specific ranges, multiple that times the number of guns or SP of infantry to get your fire factor. What you won't find is a table that shows you what that means in the way of casualties. My guess is that the reason they don't have such a table available is to keep people from figuring such things as Gen Simms and Gen McDaniel are discussing.

If I am wrong perhaps one of our HPS representatives will correct me.

Gen. Ken Miller
1/2/VI
AoS

In the HPS engines casualties are from a formula, not a table. The formula is in the printed rules.

MajGen Al 'Ambushed' Amos
3rd "Amos' Ambushers" Bde, Cavalry Division, XX Corps, AoC
The Union Forever! Huzzah!

In the case of "Turn" based games it is usually best to fire the guns as a stack against a single target because it will trigger AI Defensive Fire. For "Phased" games you can usually fire them individually if you want; however, be aware of the LRV. If it falls below 1 then guns should be combined to get a higher value. In both cases you should be aware of the odds of getting a hit which depends on the LRV-HRV range since you may be wasting ammo and in the case of "Turn" based triggering heavier fire than you are giving.

First some definitions the LRV, or Low Range Value, and HRV, High Range Value, are calculated based on the number of guns firing, their weapon's factor for the range, the default HPS factor, and any modifiers that are to be applied to fire (defensive or offensive). It's the same formula used by infantry but with an equivalent fire of 1 Gun = 50 men, plugged in. There are some other oddities that we will come too.

The formulars are:
LRV = 5 x # guns x 50 x Weapons Factor / 1000
HRV = 25 x # guns x 50 x Weapons Factor / 1000

For example, a two gun section of 6lb Smoothbores in Antietam would have the folloing factors when fired at a target three hexes away:

LRV = 5 x 2 x 50 x 5 / 1000 = 2.5
HRV = 25 x 2 x 50 x 5 / 1000 = 12.5

Assuming no other modifiers the game will generate a random number between 2.5 and 12,5 for this fire. Let's assume it hits dead center or 7.5.

Now the problem, how does the game determine there is a hit on a gun?
Well, it does another check and this one I am not sure of the formula used. I believe it uses the odds of 7.5/25 to determine it there is a hit or a 30% chance of a gun kill. For those who wonder where the "25" came from its the stacking value used in the game for artillery. I am pretty sure it uses a random number regression to determine the hit otherwise a range of 2.5 to 12.5 would never cause a gun hit. Which the folling test is a proof of:

I fired a series of two gun 6lb sections at a target three hexes away and got a gun hit after five shots.

I fired a stack of eight guns, 6lb, at a target three hexes away. Eight guns will give you a range of 10 to 50. On first shot I got a two gun hit.

One other observation on counter battery fire: Unlike fire on infantry you will also see a result of fatigue on the target with or without casualties. It looks like this results from a separate fire roll calculating fatigue similar to the infantry calculation but without using the casualty result.

Now all we need is someone to make a statistical study to see if the odds of a hit are better for two rolls against a 2.5-12.5 range or a single roll against a 5-25 range to compare firing two sections separately or together.

Now I also mentioned a special case when the LRV fell below 1. For example the above two gun battery firing at longer range with a weapons factor of 1x would have a result range of 0.5 - 2.5. Because the LRV number just keeps approaching zero we are going to see an effect here on the odds. It isn't as obvious what will happen to the odds of a hit as you shift the range upward but it is obvious that as it shifts down into the fractions that you have little chance of a hit.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1/1/III AoM (CSA)

I have been watching this thread waiting for Kenon all day long.....I had lots of faith in his ability to answer.....Regards, Hank

BG Hank Smith
Army of Georgia
Smith's Corp Commanding

Wow! Note to self - avoid battles with General Whitehead![:D]


General Jeff Laub
Union Chief of the Army
ACWGC Cabinet Member
http://www.geocities.com/laubster22/UnionHQ/

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Al Amos</i>
<br />In the HPS engines casualties are from a formula, not a table. The formula is in the printed rules.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

But the fire factors for each weapon type at each range are in the PDT.

Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
3/2/VIII AoS

West Point Class of '01

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by laubster22</i>
<br />Wow! Note to self - avoid battles with General Whitehead![:D]


General Jeff Laub
Union Chief of the Army
ACWGC Cabinet Member
http://www.geocities.com/laubster22/UnionHQ/
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

This is a good rule, indeed. I learned more playing a couple of maneuvers with Ken than I ever could have in a million years against anyone else or the AI or reading the usuer manuals a thousand times. He's like a scientist with these games. Unreal sometimes the way he can break things down. An asset to the Confederacy for sure. We should create a special medal for him - maybe using an abacus or something - in honor of his statistical efforts to The Cause. [;)]

Regards,

Lt. Gen. Alan Lynn
Interim CSA CoA
CSA Chief of Staff
3rd Bgde, 3rd Cav Div, II Corps, AoA

God Bless <><

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by D.S. Walter</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Al Amos</i>
<br />In the HPS engines casualties are from a formula, not a table. The formula is in the printed rules.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

But the fire factors for each weapon type at each range are in the PDT.

Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
3/2/VIII AoS
West Point Class of '01
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Correct the factors used to establish the relative fire power of weapons in HPS games come from the PDT which you can look at by displaying "Parameters" from the Help menu. However, the actual casualties generated by fire uses a formula rather than a table look up. This means in HPS games firing a thousand men in hundred man groups should, in theory, produce the same result as firing all one thousand in a single shot.

The older Battleground series and almost all board games used a Table look up. This lead to playing the table since results could vary widely by shifting the table up on line or down. With enough shifts a 25 man unit could sometime generate casualties like it was a 200 man unit. In these games you had to be very aware of where your fire fell on the table since adding as little as 25 men to a fire resolution might jump you up a line on the table doubling your result. There were areas on the melee table that made increasing the force in the melee over a certain odds pointless.

The change from Table results with step losses to Formula results with individual losses is the main reason I stopped playing Battleground and switched to HPS games exclusively. This is the single most important change in the game technology made to date. It made the HPS games a true computer simulation intead of a board game on Aid-de-Camp.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1/1/III AoM (CSA)

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by laubster22</i>
<br />Wow! Note to self - avoid battles with General Whitehead![:D]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I found that out when General Whitehead first joined the club. He handed me my head in 2 out of 3 games and the best I managed was a draw.



Gen. Ken Miller
1/2/VI
AoS

Okay, it seems that casualties will occur on a percentage liklihood according to firepower and range and increasing guns may achieve a level that guarentees fatigues and increases liklihood of gun loss.
That is as it alway has been.
The argument seems to be that when probability is 80% of fatigue increase and 5% that a gun will be lost, one should keep firing individual units with the equal expected results in fatigues and gun losses as had you fired the entire stack in one blast.
That does not seem to match my experience. [?][?][?]

General Whitehead has given us the most useful information, but what needs to be addressed are questions such as if I have 16 equivalent guns at a range for double power(2X):

1. Will I be more likely to inflict gun losses on my opponent by firing the guns singly or in combinations of their units? How about one gun units?
<font color="orange">My experience is that firing single units will result in many "no effect" outcomes. It seems logical that that means that those are lost effects, while had they been fired in mass, their effect would add to the liklihood of inflicting casualties or fatigues without possibility of their lost power.</font id="orange">

2. Accordingly, will fatigue accumulation be increased by firing with unit combinations so that the firepower increases or guarentees damage results?

I have played naval warfare games as well as land warfare, and they both seem to agree that with increasing firepower (starting with about 3 guns)that results are increased better than an arithmatical increase, (1+1=2FP, but 1+2=4FP) but then there are no further firepower effectiveness accelerated increases.
<u>This is not an important issue for me</u>, but as the games programming evolves toward more accuracy in realism, I expect it to show up.

BG Ross McDaniel
2nd Bde, 3rd Div, III Corps, AoG, CSA

From Abraham Lincoln
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