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 Post subject: Movement fatigue
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:03 am 
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Perhaps movement fatigue (and possibly even movement disruption too, like in the Nap engine) could be added to the weather feature at some point? Marching for hours through mud or heavy rain must have been exhausting.

Also maybe there could be movement fatigue for using more than 1/2 maximum movement allowance? This would have a significant tactical impact on gameplay, with players having to chose whether to move quickly - and become exhausted after a long forced march - or move more slowly but arrive at their destination relatively fresh.


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 Post subject: Re: Movement fatigue
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:12 am 
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Representing physical fatigue has long been a personal wish of mine. Not sure if it might be difficult to implement within the existing game engine though?

The larger maps especially would benefit from players having to juggle between time and distance more than they currently do. I guess these are basically a tactical engine where physical fatigue should have no part.

In my opinion though it is the single thing that would make these games more realistic?

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 Post subject: Re: Movement fatigue
PostPosted: Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:00 am 
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In the HPS game it is really suppose to be battle fatigue but physical fatigue has been slowly creeping in with the introduction of optional night movement fatigue. Whether the same parameter can wear two hats I am not sure but since it doesn't require a rewrite of the game engine maybe they can add more optional rules that use it. It would be nice if all movement expenditure carried a fatigue penalty. Marching all day and not giving your troops a rest before sending them into battle would better reflect the problems of Civil War armies.

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 Post subject: Re: Movement fatigue
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:55 am 
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Fatigue, both Mental and Physical, are difficult things to simulate in a war game. And one can find exceptions in the CW to any assumptions you make about how to simulate them. They interact with each other but aren't the same thing. Mental or Combat Fatigue affects the ability to get your troops to commit themselves one more time to engaging the enemy. Physical fatigue affects their ability to exploit any success that may occur or keep themselves from being captured if they fail. Both should be simulated quite differently in a game. A. P. Hill's march to Antietam is a good example of physical fatigue and its consequences. Straggling is one of the best ways to simulate its effects. Probably the fight for Little Roundtop is a good example of Combat fatigue and its results. Both sides were at the end of their mental resources. The 20th Maine rose to the occassion one more time and the Rebs couldn't match it resulting in surrenders.

The HPS fatigue system has the drawback of treating everything equally. This has the bad effect from the gaming point of view of canceling itself out. The attacker and defender tend to become fatigued at equal rates so neither side changes its tactics because of it. Only in some of the multi day scenarios if you use the optional fatigue recovery rules is it worth while to try to manage your fatigue by withdrawing units from battle.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to think up any better system for fatigue that will make it limit combat like it should without unbalancing the games. How do you implement Combat fatigue so it will reflect both the unwillingness of troops to advance that occurred in some battles but will allow the all morning fight Jackson made at Antietam in the Cornfield?

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 Post subject: Re: Movement fatigue
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:45 pm 
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I would like to make a few suggestions on how fatigue could be portrayed in our games. I must admit I know very little about programing so I hope some of these suggestions are feasible.

1- all movement should entail a small fatigue penalty per turn. Likewise non-movement would reduce fatigue by a small equal amount per turn but if a unit is in constant motion it will steadily accumulate fatigue .Thus simulating units who march all day will accumulate significant fatigue.

2- There should be fairly severe fatigue penalties for night turn movement. Likewise each turn of no-night time movement would be rewarded with significant reduction of fatigue.

3- Entrenching also should have a substantial fatigue penalty. While on the subject of entrenching I would like to see the rate of successful entrenching be greatly increased for post-1863 games. By 1864 both armies had become quite adept at putting together field fortifications.

Well I guess those are my thoughts on the subject.

BG Tom Moore CSA

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 Post subject: Re: Movement fatigue
PostPosted: Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:51 pm 
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I think movement fatigue should only be considered with forced marching. Unfortunately we don't have that option. I would think that standard marching rates would not unnecessarily fatigue a man -who was used to marching everywhere-unless it was for an extended period of time without a break, aas marching columns would stop regularly to rest., and depending on terrain, moving on mountainous or hilly trails would increase the fatigue level more than level ground.

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 Post subject: Re: Movement fatigue
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:44 am 
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Over 25 years ago, SSI produced a fine Gettysburg game that ran on the Commodore 64. The graphics were understandably pretty lousy by today's standards, but they did have some interesting concepts. Everything ran off operation points, and the number of operation points was determined by the quality and proximity of the unit's leaders. If you wanted more operation points, you could get a limited number at a cost in fatigue. I think combat losses also caused fatigue. They even factored in modifications to the fire results during periods of sustained combat to account for smoke.

I have always wondered why Talonsoft and HPS were so reluctant to adopt some of the best of SSI's innovations.

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 Post subject: Re: Movement fatigue
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:16 am 
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Tom Moore wrote:
I would like to make a few suggestions on how fatigue could be portrayed in our games. I must admit I know very little about programing so I hope some of these suggestions are feasible.

1- all movement should entail a small fatigue penalty per turn. Likewise non-movement would reduce fatigue by a small equal amount per turn but if a unit is in constant motion it will steadily accumulate fatigue .Thus simulating units who march all day will accumulate significant fatigue.

2- There should be fairly severe fatigue penalties for night turn movement. Likewise each turn of no-night time movement would be rewarded with significant reduction of fatigue.

3- Entrenching also should have a substantial fatigue penalty. While on the subject of entrenching I would like to see the rate of successful entrenching be greatly increased for post-1863 games. By 1864 both armies had become quite adept at putting together field fortifications.

Well I guess those are my thoughts on the subject.

BG Tom Moore CSA


Item 1 would require HPS or JT to do something, but 2 and 3 can be implemented now in most of the HPS games since there are parameter file entries for them. It does require altering the pdt file and the scenarios so they use the new file.

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 Post subject: Re: Movement fatigue
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:20 am 
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mihalik wrote:
Over 25 years ago, SSI produced a fine Gettysburg game that ran on the Commodore 64. The graphics were understandably pretty lousy by today's standards, but they did have some interesting concepts. Everything ran off operation points, and the number of operation points was determined by the quality and proximity of the unit's leaders. If you wanted more operation points, you could get a limited number at a cost in fatigue. I think combat losses also caused fatigue. They even factored in modifications to the fire results during periods of sustained combat to account for smoke.

I have always wondered why Talonsoft and HPS were so reluctant to adopt some of the best of SSI's innovations.


You wouldn't happen to remember some of the details about how they allocated operation points and expenditure rates? One could come up with some house rules for use with HPS. But fatigue wold be difficult.

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 Post subject: Re: Movement fatigue
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:34 am 
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If we were to have daytime fatigue, why not just use the same formula used for night fatigue?
The way I figure it, every hex moved would accrue 2.5 fatigue pts and every turn at rest the unit would lose 2.5 pts. There would have to be higher points for every 30 ft increase in elevation but the normal rate for going downhill. From what I've read, marching was light (to 10 miles or 176 hexes) or heavy (20 miles). finally there was a double quick which was the forced march with a hugher rate.
I suppose all this would have to come from Tiller.

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 Post subject: Re: Movement fatigue
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:37 pm 
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KWhitehead wrote:
You wouldn't happen to remember some of the details about how they allocated operation points and expenditure rates? One could come up with some house rules for use with HPS. But fatigue wold be difficult.


Hi, General,

I haven't played the games in over 15 years, but as I recall the max op points you could get were 15 and the minimum 6. The map was squares instead of hexes, but movement costs were about the same as we have now, at least for clear terrain and roads. You could entrench up to five levels, and each level was worth 10% protection, but you could only entrench one level per turn I think. Fire cost 2 op points, but you could only fire once. Units were demi-brigades and artillery bns or brigades. I think melees require five op points, but I'm not certain on that. It would cost two fatigue for each forced march op point, plus there was a random fatigue cost for regular movement of 1 fatigue. That's as best I can remember. Leaders were not depicted, but had to be part of a unit. They also added bonuses of up to 30% if they were stacked with a unit in melee, depending on the quality of the leader.

SSI also used the system for a Shiloh and a Chickamauga game.

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 Post subject: Re: Movement fatigue
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:57 pm 
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Ah yes, I remember those games. Must have played them a hundred times. They were my first civil war games. There is a website where you can download them for free but I forget the name of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Movement fatigue
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 12:20 am 
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It might be from here: http://www.hotud.org/component/content/ ... -war/19794

or here: http://www.abandonwaredos.com/abandonwa ... d=MTIyMQ==

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 Post subject: Re: Movement fatigue
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:13 am 
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Thanks, Ernie! I forgot about Antietam.

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 Post subject: Re: Movement fatigue
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:14 am 
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That's it Ernie, Home of the Underdogs, the source of all the old games.

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