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Would you like a Maneuver Battle to be at full points
Poll ended at Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:26 pm
Yes 29%  29%  [ 12 ]
No 51%  51%  [ 21 ]
Don't care 20%  20%  [ 8 ]
Total votes : 41
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 Post subject: Re: Maneuvers at full points poll
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:59 pm 
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How about starting a Gettysburg reenactment thread to build on this concept?
JD

JD Ferry
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 Post subject: Re: Maneuvers at full points poll
PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:47 pm 
I think the main question is whether or not anyone would game more or less if maneuvers were counted as full battles.

I would say no.

They might gain more points but once you hit those point plateuas its really needless to ever think twice about points again. One can only wonder how many unreported games are ongoing right now!

Mixed MP games are a norm now. I have always registered them (when I take the time to) as Battles rather than Manuevers. Right or wrong? Who knows. To be honest I havent cared enough to ask anyone.

Rather than dishing out more points to everyone I think we need to really ask what the end goal of points are. Like I said the average CSA player has over 800 points which is the highest plateau possible for advancement. In the USA the average member has even more points at about 825 on average.

So what do more points solve?


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 Post subject: Re: Maneuvers at full points poll
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 5:26 am 
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Its NOT about the points. Its about encouragement or discouragement from fighting the Battles. Everyone is correct-we dont need more Battle points. It doesnt matter one way or the other but.....

By making maneuvers one half point the club is sending a meassage. That message is "dont fight against your fellow Army members. Go fight the bad guys". In a vastly larger club this might be possible but with so small a pool we shouldnt discourage anyone from fighting anyone. Its all the same club and its not a ladder club its a game experience club so let us encourage those experiences as much as possible!!

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Lt Col Tony Best
3rd Brigade "Tony`s Best"
AoC


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 Post subject: Re: Maneuvers at full points poll
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:05 am 
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sirs,

Section 4.0 Officer Battle Dossier (‘OBD’) Points and Rank

4.1 Military Ranks and Requirements. Rank is determined by accumulated Officer Battle Dossier (‘OBD’) points and club service (as approved by the Cabinet).
a) Cadet - 15
b) Second Lieutenant------------------------------------25pts
c) Lieutenant - 30 points--------------------------------60pts
d) Captain - 45 points-----------------------------------90pts
e) Major - 60 points-------------------------------------120pts
f) Lieutenant Colonel - 75 points----------------------350pts
g) Colonel - 150 points---------------------------------500pts
h) Brigadier General - 300 points----------------------750pts
i) Major General - 450 points--------------------------1500pts
j)Lieutenant General - 600 points----------------------2000pts
k) General - 800 points---------------------------------3000pts


i think you should just move the point system up and keep the approval system as is, if some folks have to drop a rank then so be it, at least it would make the point system worth something again.

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Nathan Bedford Forest Cavalry Corp (3rd)
Army of The West


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 Post subject: Re: Maneuvers at full points poll
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 12:13 pm 
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Actually, this type of progression was discussed several years ago. It does have merit/potential.

However, if something like this was initiated, I think we should look at "grandfathering" members at some point. That is allowing existing ranks to be continue to be held.

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President ACWGC -Sept 2015
Western Theater, Commander, USA
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 Post subject: Re: Maneuvers at full points poll
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:42 pm 
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I agree that the idea has potential. It's certainly worthy of further discussion. What is the rationale for grandfathering the current rank held? I'm not implying I think it's a good or a bad idea, just curious about the rationale behind it.

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Lt. Gen. Don Centers
6/1/V/AotP


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 Post subject: Re: Maneuvers at full points poll
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:01 pm 
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Ernie, actually I was the one who brought up the subject about the points schedule pointing out at the time that eventually most members would be Generals.(this was a LONG time ago :( ) Ernie is correct, I also mentioned reduction in ranks and I think that killed the deal.

Still, that is a seperate topic. We are not a ladder club we are a Battle fighting club and a comradery club and elimination of the maneuvers encourages both.

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3rd Brigade "Tony`s Best"
AoC


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 Post subject: Re: Maneuvers at full points poll
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:18 pm 
This is amusing...

one group is arguing "Points Dont Matter" so why bother changing anything?

one group says "Points Don't Matter" so why not change it?

I think the bottom line we all need to take away from this is "Points Don't Matter."

I still think eliminating all points is the best way to go. People are assinged ranks based on the position they hold in the Club and nothing else. If your rightfully holding a position in the hierarchy of your side than you get a nice little rank like Lt Gen or General. If you are a BC than your a BG. Easy to understand. Maybe it will even encourage more poeple to volunteer for positions. In the end holding a rank gets you absolutely zero benefits in the Club so does rank matter either? No.

Having fun matters.

If the DoR crashed tomorrow would I lose a wink of sleep? Nope. If the forums crashed... :cry: Noooooooo! I have my fun on here and in the games!


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 Post subject: Re: Maneuvers at full points poll
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:25 pm 
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Gentlemen <salute>

I agree with General Blake in a way, and don't in a way. Points both do and don't matter.

We all enter the ACWGC as lieutenants, and there has to be something to measure progress as we make our way up the ranks. Advancing to captain (45 points), major (60 points), and lieutenant colonel (75 points) are easily reached, with advancement to colonel (150 points) requiring a bit of commitment. Achieving the rank of brigadier general (300 points) requires a greater degree of determination, as well as cabinet approval, and is recognition of both your efforts and commitment to the ACWGC.

Command positions are required for advancement above the rank of brigaider general, where points really don't matter in my opinion. I'm sure I could search the DoR and find brigadier generals with enough points for promotion to general (800 points), however have never served in a command position. Serving in command positions at the division-level and above should determine promotion to higher ranks, not an arbitrary number. This is not to say that a lieutenant colonel serving as a division commander should be promoted to major general (not enough points), however they should be awarded the rank upon reaching the general officer ranks.

To address the points awarded for maneuvers vs. battles, maneuvers aren't battles. Manuevers are bloodless battles, while battles are bloody maneuvers. Not exactly as it was written, however maneuvers should carry no weight in a member's OBD in my opinion. We have a Yankee Army and a Confederate Army, and accomplishment should be measured from facing the enemy. I've served in command positions (division and corps) for the last 3 1/2 years and have lost track of "maneuvers" that were entered into the DoR as "battles". Battle for points, manuever for development, esprit de corps, or simply because you like playing the other guy.

Highest regards,

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General Neal Hebert
Edward C. Walthall Division (2nd aka "Gator Alley")
II Corps, Army of the West
CSA Cabinet Secretary


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 Post subject: Re: Maneuvers at full points poll
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:46 am 
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Blake wrote:
I think the bottom line we all need to take away from this is "Points Don't Matter." !
I respect your opinion but I disagree with you. A couple of comments on a forum doesn't necessarily represent a consensus among hundreds of members, although I accept that it is a view held by some members, a view they are entitled to.

I would be sorry to see points swept away. They are a measure of your experience, progression, commitment and time in the club, something you have earned. If they mean nothing to you, then ignore them. But why get rid of something that is valued by other members, especially if is not doing any harm? We are lucky to have the DoR so at least administering points is fairly streamlined - and they in no way stand in the way of camaraderie and making friends. I'm open to discussion and the exploration of new ideas and refinements, but I would urge caution in proposing that we abandon a facet of the club experience that may have played a part in the very success of the club over the years...

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 Post subject: Re: Maneuvers at full points poll
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:45 am 
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I certainly agree with General Barlow that the ranking system has beeen an intregal part of the club.

Now, without calling out folks by name-if points and/or ranks are an important issue to you kindly start another post. This post is only about a small segment of that topic and is getting lost in verbage unrelated directly to the matter at hand.

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Lt Col Tony Best
3rd Brigade "Tony`s Best"
AoC


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 Post subject: Re: Maneuvers at full points poll
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:26 am 
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As a fairly new member (less than two years), I always thought points should only be awarded for battles fought.
Some members have thousands of points and very few battles fought. I have always thought that was odd.

If I was to suggest a change in how points were awarded, I would only award points for battles fought..........period.

just my opinion.......

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Pickett's Infantry Division, I Corps,
Army of Northern Virginia, CSA


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 Post subject: Re: Maneuvers at full points poll
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:11 pm 
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dukemat wrote:
As a fairly new member (less than two years), I always thought points should only be awarded for battles fought.
Some members have thousands of points and very few battles fought. I have always thought that was odd.

If I was to suggest a change in how points were awarded, I would only award points for battles fought..........period.

just my opinion.......


There are those that have a lot of non-combat points. These are members that have been in admin positions for some time and the point system is used to award/reward those volunteers.

I have never looked at it, but I think that most members with a lot of admin points, also have played quite a few games over the years. Sometimes members slow down the playing after 10 years or so. :lol:

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General Ernie Sands
President ACWGC -Sept 2015
Western Theater, Commander, USA
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 Post subject: Re: Maneuvers at full points poll
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:53 pm 
Alot of veterans also stop registering their games at some point. Not because they dont support the DoR or the Club but just because once they hit that 800 point mark... why bother? Unless they really want the points - which is perfectly fine. But I know many veterans (raising my hand) who dont register their games 100% of the time.

General Barlow's comments are well-received by me. He brings up valid points and presents them well. I say leave the DoR as is. Nothing's broke. For the Club to find a "better system" is impossible without a lot of compromises, arguments, and needless manhours wasted in debating and reconfiguring Club Rules, databases, websites, and the DoR. Imagine if everyone's OOB points suddenly went up 25%! Alot of people would have to suddenly redo army records and books, issue new awards, and pass out more medals in an effort to catch up. In the end the benefit is negligible (if any, or even detrimental, according to some of us). That's a lot of valuable volunteer time used for something so unnecessary in the end.

I would love to see more Cabinet sponsored and supported tournaments! Less admin and more gaming :mrgreen: A President's Tournament or USA vs CSA tournament by the Cabinet might be fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Maneuvers at full points poll
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:24 pm 
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I say leave things as they are, they are not broken.

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