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 Post subject: Detached Commanders
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:04 am 
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Gentlemen,
I'm playing an Antietam 3.0, 40 turn Meeting Engagement near Bull Run. My Union troops under McDowell are ALL well within the area marked as his headquarters range but two of five Division commanders are detached even though they were within range too.

Anyone have an explanation?

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 Post subject: Re: Detached Commanders
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 5:54 pm 
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The only thing I can think of is they weren't in the radius of McDowell when the check was made which is at the beginning of the turn but moved into his radius during the turn?

Your information is kind of sparse.


Mike Mihalik
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 Post subject: Re: Detached Commanders
PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2020 7:18 pm 
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Even though they are within range and will have received a command bonus from their superior, their command rating still must equal or exceed a die roll. Those two division commanders got beaten by the dice.

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 Post subject: Re: Detached Commanders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:01 am 
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No, gentlemen. I hate to intrude on, in what I consider "professionals" of the ACWGC, but I don't think that is the case at all. What General Sober fails to realize is that the camp followers that over ran his army the week before we started this scrap...was successfully planted there by yours truly. :mrgreen:

They were sooooo beautiful that, now his poor commanders cant keep their mind on their men and the fight. Therefore..."detached". :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Detached Commanders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:48 am 
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shsober wrote:
Gentlemen,
I'm playing an Antietam 3.0, 40 turn Meeting Engagement near Bull Run. My Union troops under McDowell are ALL well within the area marked as his headquarters range but two of five Division commanders are detached even though they were within range too.

Anyone have an explanation?

McDowell is an Army commander and his nominal command radius is 28 hexes. His army is composed of divisions (no corps) and in such case his actual command range is 12 hexes, like for a Corps commander, even if his command range shown is 28 hexes.
The same story is with a brigade attached directly to the Corps commander - Corps commander will act as a division commander for any such brigade.
I don't know if it is a bug or not but the game engine works in this way.

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 Post subject: Re: Detached Commanders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:31 am 
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Alek Krolikowski wrote:
shsober wrote:
Gentlemen,
I'm playing an Antietam 3.0, 40 turn Meeting Engagement near Bull Run. My Union troops under McDowell are ALL well within the area marked as his headquarters range but two of five Division commanders are detached even though they were within range too.

Anyone have an explanation?

McDowell is an Army commander and his nominal command radius is 28 hexes. His army is composed of divisions (no corps) and in such case his actual command range is 12 hexes, like for a Corps commander, even if his command range shown is 28 hexes.
The same story is with a brigade attached directly to the Corps commander - Corps commander will act as a division commander for any such brigade.
I don't know if it is a bug or not but the game engine works in this way.


Thanks! That makes some sense, though I doubt you will find it anywhere in the documentation.

Mike Mihalik
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 Post subject: Re: Detached Commanders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:31 pm 
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Never checked this but in such case is the command range shown on map correct?

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 Post subject: Re: Detached Commanders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:18 pm 
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No, highlighted Command Range is based on the PDT value, whatever that says is what you see when you check highlight Command Range.

I ran a test in Gettysburg and this is correct. Moved Meade 7 hexes from Patrick.
Patrick was in command range but Detached.
Moved Meade within 6 hexes, next turn Patrick was no longer Detached.
Division Command Range is 6 so Patrick is treated as a brigade commander under Meade.
However it appears artillery is treated differently, Reserve Artillery units were not Detached until Meade was 29 hexes away.
I did a similar check with a Corps Cavalry detachment and it too was not detached until the Corps CO was 13 hexes away.
Neither the Reserve Artillery nor the cavalry unit were under another officer.
So it appears the range to officers is affected depending on how they appear in the OOB but individual units directly under the officer are not and are not subject to being detached until outside his Command Range as shown on the map.
Should you place an officer in charge of a unit in an oob and place him under another commander it will depend on how his command is designated what range his superior will have regarding his Detached status.

Something else I have found is cavalry officers show 3x the normal command range for their command level.
This is their actual command range, have checked that in several games.

Whether these are by design or a bug I don't know as it currently is not mentioned in the documentation.

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 Post subject: Re: Detached Commanders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:01 pm 
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The rest sounds OK but the thing with Meade & Patrick doesn't make sense to me. Meade as AC should have 28 hex CR, so if Patrick is a direct subordinate he should only be detached if 29 hexes or more away. Other command ranges should matter here.
General Miller could you do us a favor and copy the OOB section depicting Meade & Patrick to the forum?

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 Post subject: Re: Detached Commanders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:44 pm 
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krmiller_usa wrote:

Something else I have found is cavalry officers show 3x the normal command range for their command level.
This is their actual command range, have checked that in several games.

Whether these are by design or a bug I don't know as it currently is not mentioned in the documentation.


They seem to have changed this in Shenandoah. Cavalry commanders have the same command radii as their infantry counterparts.

Mike Mihalik
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 Post subject: Re: Detached Commanders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 6:31 pm 
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Are you sure?
I see Ashby in 1st Kernstown as a Conf. brigade leader and he shows 9 hexes command range what is 3 times that of the brigade command range. Testing showed that it works with the shown command range, 9 hexes OK but 10 hexes means detached.

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Last edited by C. Hecht on Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Detached Commanders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 7:16 pm 
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OOB from 3rd Day of Gettrysburg
Union A A of the Potomac
Begin
L 4 5 41 MG G G Meade
U 42 3 C C 60 213 Oneida N.Y. Co
U 150 4 C C 226 223 1st Mass. Cav (-)
U 100 4 C C 226 223 1st Mass. Cav (det)
B Provost Guard
Begin
L 2 4 1 BG M R Patrick
U 148 4 I R 26 98 93d New York

As you can see Provost Guard has a B (brigade) for command level.
Apparently that makes Meade their DC and he must be within 6 hexes for Patrick to be in command.
I tested this and proved it is correct.
However the cavalry listed directly under Meade are good as long as they are within 28 hexes of Meade.
Again I tested this.

A second Case
D 2d Corps Arty Bde
Begin
L 4 4 27 Col J C Tidball
U 536 2 I R 130 130 3d/4th NY Hvy
Tidball is listed as a D, a division.
He is fine as long as he is within 12 hexes of Hancock.
If he was a B he would need to be within 6 hexes to not be Detached.
Tried it and I am correct.

However looking at this one
B 1st Corps Arty Bde
Begin
U 2 5 A T 0 4 1-2d Maine Lt Bty
U 2 5 A T 0 4 2-2d Maine Lt Bty
U 2 5 A T 0 4 3-2d Maine Lt Bty

Although this unit is listed as a brigade the units are not detached until they are 13 hexes from the Corps CO.
So it appears only officers are effected by this.

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 Post subject: Re: Detached Commanders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:22 pm 
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Thanks General Miller.
A little hard to understand but I suppose it should somehow limit the possible command bonus than can roll down a command chain and also should punish command chains without proper staged command levels.
I do not have the OOB for 1st Bull Run but afaik as the corps system was not yet used the army commander has the divisions directly under him, that these division commanders can't utilize the regular AC command range but have to be in a range the equals the CC command range seems ok, it should be punished that there is no corps.
A missing command level should be punished and if the designer didn't what it to be that way he could simply have classify a formation on a different command level. The OOB piece from Gettysburg provides an example for this, although 2d Corps Arty Bde is obviously designated as brigade it's marked as division and by that can use the usual command range of a CC.

In the end it's seems good the way it works but unpractical, the players have to check the ingame Organization Dialog, only there they will see what a formation is classified despite it's naming.

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 Post subject: Re: Detached Commanders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:18 pm 
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C. Hecht wrote:
Are you sure?
I see Ashby in 1st Kernstown as a Conf. brigade leader and he shows 9 hexes command range what is 3 times that of the brigade command range. Testing showed that it works with the shown command range, 9 hexes OK but 10 hexes means detached.


You are right. Yet apparently from Piedmont on the cavalry brigade leaders only have a command radius of 3. Wonder how they did that! Or why.



Mike Mihalik
LtGen CSA

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Last edited by mihalik on Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Detached Commanders
PostPosted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 9:24 pm 
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C. Hecht wrote:
Thanks General Miller.
A little hard to understand but I suppose it should somehow limit the possible command bonus than can roll down a command chain and also should punish command chains without proper staged command levels.
I do not have the OOB for 1st Bull Run but afaik as the corps system was not yet used the army commander has the divisions directly under him, that these division commanders can't utilize the regular AC command range but have to be in a range the equals the CC command range seems ok, it should be punished that there is no corps.
A missing command level should be punished and if the designer didn't what it to be that way he could simply have classify a formation on a different command level. The OOB piece from Gettysburg provides an example for this, although 2d Corps Arty Bde is obviously designated as brigade it's marked as division and by that can use the usual command range of a CC.

In the end it's seems good the way it works but unpractical, the players have to check the ingame Organization Dialog, only there they will see what a formation is classified despite it's naming.


Worse for the Confederates. Since they only had brigades at 1st Bull Run they have to stay within six of their army leaders.

Once again, my hat is off to Col Krolikowski for figuring this out.


Mike Mihalik
LtGen CSA

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