American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

Mike is correct...and Doug has no intention of editing all the scenarios for that value, so that's a personal preference thing. Just discuss it with your opponent prior to play...

LGen. Hamilton
II Corps
ANV, CSA

Argh! One of my pet peeves is that 1 gun batteries use up an artillery ammo point, same as 2 or 3 gun batteries. At turn 57 on a 200+ turn game, I have almost 3 dozen rebel 1-gun batteries running about the rear on MP duty, most of which arrived on board at that strength. [:(] I would just as soon not have their liability for enemy points, except for their ammo.

Artillery ammo conservation is critically important for the rebel, and union artillery strength and ammo supply are both already at great advantage. It does not make economic sense for the rebel to fire 1 gun batteries. Presently, a 1 gun battery depletes ammo supply as fast as a 3-gun btry. [?]

This is my first HPS game against a live opponent and I expect that I will return to TalonSoft games, until that issue is addressed. [B)][8]

But when bringing up a problem, I believe in recommending a solution. Why not spend an ammo point per gun when fired, and just increase the ammo points for both sides? [:p]

Is this issue a fix in the works? Does anybody else find it as aggravating as I do?

BG Ross McDaniel
2nd Bde, 3rd Div, III Corps, AoG

Hi, Ross,

To my knowledge, one round/gun was first proposed by General Whitehead, and it makes the most sense. Problems with the artillery system have been discussed from time to time since Talonsoft had a forum. At least artillery effectiveness has been modified so that, theoretically at least, three two-gun sections fire with the same effect as a six-gun battery. I say theoretically because the large Union batteries in Campaign Peninsula seem a lot more effective blowing up guns than the Reb sections, but the Reb 6-pounders seem next to worthless, so it may just be a gun type issue. Rich Hamilton could probably tell you if changes are in the works. I think it was brought up to John Tiller at Tillercon but don't know where it stands.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA

Thank you, Gen Mihalik,

I am pleased to know that Gen Ken and I agree on the solution. Brilliant minds tend to run in the same directions. [:D][}:)]

Artillery is less effective in HPS than TS, which I find reasonable, easier to kill and more expensive in victory points, all of which I can live with. But firing 1 bangers at twice the ammo cost of 2 gun yank batteries is a formula to lose the game twice as fast. That is why I would give up the advantage of those few rebel 3 gun units gladly, to afford some use of the multitude of 1 gun batteries.

Maybe if I have ammo to burn on the last day, I might deploy them for combat.

BG Ross McDaniel

Ross,
A workable solution to the artillery ammo expenditure problem is for the <i>scenario designer</i> to give the side with the smaller batteries more ammo, perhaps based on some formula per gun so that there ends up being no disadvantage for having smaller batteries. I don't have any firm evidence to back this up but in one or two of the Peninsula scenarios I've looked at the rebs seem to have much more artillery ammunition and perhaps this is the reason. I would assume so as the designer Andrew Wagenhoffer seems to have been very thorough in other aspects of his design. I haven't looked at any of the other games. Of course though, there may be some battles where historically one side or the other did have less ammo reserves and this might also be reflected in the scenario design.

[url="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.r.barlow/acw/acw.htm"]General Antony Barlow[/url]
[url="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.r.barlow/aoc/XXAoC.htm"]Army of the Cumberland[/url]

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Antony Barlow</i>
<br />Ross,
A workable solution to the artillery ammo expenditure problem is for the <i>scenario designer</i> to give the side with the smaller batteries more ammo, perhaps based on some formula per gun so that there ends up being no disadvantage for having smaller batteries. I don't have any firm evidence to back this up but in one or two of the Peninsula scenarios I've looked at the rebs seem to have much more artillery ammunition and perhaps this is the reason. I would assume so as the designer Andrew Wagenhoffer seems to have been very thorough in other aspects of his design. I haven't looked at any of the other games. Of course though, there may be some battles where historically one side or the other did have less ammo reserves and this might also be reflected in the scenario design.

[url="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.r.barlow/acw/acw.htm"]General Antony Barlow[/url]
[url="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.r.barlow/aoc/XXAoC.htm"]Army of the Cumberland[/url]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

The Rebs have more ammo in HPS Peninsula precisely for this reason - to compensate for all the smaller gun sections. It was a specific of the design. We discussed this fact when Peninsula came out at some length due to some thinking that the Yanks had too little ammo. I used to think the same, but now I just think we are all too trigger happy with the guns and need to learn to use our ammo sparingly like they did during the real war. In reality a battery would have X amount of each ammo type and would have to withdraw after shooting off their allotment. In our games each battery has an "unlimited" supply since they come from a single ammo pool.

If we really want historic accuracy, each battery or gun section should have their own individual ammo supply and once they run out they should have to withdraw and find an artillery supply wagon the way infantry does. And if an opponent captures an artillery supply wagon, they get to use the ammo as long as it is under their control.

We aren't Space Invaders with unlimitted ammo. We should have to conserve it for occassions when it would be most useful instead of firing off every gun every turn that is in range of anything whether they would do any real damage or not...

Regards,

Brig. Gen. Alan Lynn
2nd Div, II Corps, AoA

God Bless <><

As long as a one gun section uses the same amount of ammo as a two or six gun section you can't fix it by changing ammo levels unless you give essentially unlimited ammo to each side. This of course creates an equally bad condition of not requiring any conservation of ammo. As long as there is a chance of one side running out of ammo by end of scenario the following gamey tactics will have to be used:

1. Send all one gun sections to the rear or leave them limbered as road blocks.

2. Always target the other side's two gun sections until they are reduced to one gun sections making them useless as yours are.

This problem is particularly acute in Peninsula with its large number of one gun sections but it shows up eventually in any campaign as the gun losses are carried forward.

<font color="red">The difference between two one gun sections firing the same as a single two gun section but using twice the ammo are to great to make the one gun sections useable in the games.</font id="red">

BG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
III Corps, AoM (CSA)

Giving the rebel more ammo factors, than they had historically, to compensate for the 1-gun batteries is a solution which raises more problems,...for the "historical minded."

I am presently withdrawing 1 gun units to the rear so that I can get "more bang for the buck." That means that with the increased efficiency, I shall get more impact on the damnyankee forces! [:)] That effect should be accentuated with the Peninsula Campaign.

For maximum realism, the idea of each battery having a preordained ammo supply is best. It resembles the <u>Total War </u>Shogun and Medieval series where archers, crossbowmen, musketeers, and seige machines run out of ammo, and can be withdrawn or their lightly armed for hand-to-hand combat, crews can fight as infantry. The unit icons have an indicator for their level of ammo as it is expended. This appeals to me because it would force us to use the weaker units, if we want their effect on the battle, and not deploying them would forfeit their benefit to the owning side. The present status allows me to use their ammo for the stronger units, rather like having the weak units turn over their ammo to better and more capable units. It could happen!...if Lee or Grant ordered them to. [:D] That is my present solution to the problem of scarce arty ammo.

If each gun fired one ammo factor, there would be no advantage to withhold 1-gun units, such as not adding another 21 hex range factor to a stack of 21 range units, in conservation of ammo.

If 9 hex range units' ammo cannot be fired by Napoleons and Parrott guns, they should not be available to them, as currently exists. Consider that on all types of guns and their ammo.

Probably the optimum solution is to have no central stock of artillery ammo, but every unit has its own, that it would enduce players to deploy every unit, striving to achieve maximum effect and combat efficiency.

If there was divisional, corps, or army level ammo supply for batteries which shot out their own stock, they might be resupplied as we currently do with small arms units. Each appropriate HQ might have its own ability to resupply artillery, at probably limited amounts.

I expect that it's complicated, as with some divisions having their own organic artillery and others, not. I will try to minimize my complaining if HPS opts for simpler solutions. [:(]

BG Ross McDaniel
2nd Bde, 3rd Div, III Corps, AoG, CSA

A lot of good thoughts here.
My solution to the arty ammo: Make guns work similar to small arms: have a percentage chance of becoming low on ammo and then out. Low ammo won't be able to fire in an offensive fire phase though. Give all the current ammo wagons a second number that would represent arty ammo. The size of the battery will dictate how much ammo it draws from a wagon during resupply. Out of ammo draws twice as much as a low ammo battery. This way an entire side would not necessarily run totally out of arty ammo as with the current pool.
PS: agree that in HPS Getty, guns are worth way too many victory points...

MajGen, 2/VIII/AoS
"Beer! It's not just for breakfast anymore!"