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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2001 3:04 pm 
A basic question for everyone:

Is it considered "unethical" to withdraw all of one's units from the map in the face of certain defeat in order to preserve a hard fought draw, well into the game?

I recently did this against an excellent Colonial opponent at Bladensburg variant D, playing through 24 of 36 turns.

To set the stage for this example, I had a force of 3859 men, two guns and two rockets already on map...no reinforcements for me. The Colonials had 5540 men, 19 guns, plus two regiments of reinforcements coming on later. More importantly IMO is that the Colonials had probably 3 to 4 times as many actual units than I had, with a long road full of steadily advancing units being fed into the battle.

I started out aggressively enough to hurt some Colonial cavalry and other units to gain a draw in a game that started out as a minor Brit defeat. As more and more Colonial units kept joining the fray, I found myself having to back up a hill just to maintain equal losses and some space. As more and more blues mixed in, I had to go on the defensive just to maintain a backpeddling and weakened line. About turn 20 or so the game was still a draw but I was now being pushed toward a map edge, and Colonial units were starting to surround my position. At this stage I knew for sure that to hang around and exchange fire would only get my whole force isolated and eventually annihilated, so since I had to do a lot of walking backwards anyway, I walked my units (some ran) toward the map edge intending to cut my losses and preserve the draw, which was <u>barely</u> a draw by this time. Each turn I exited what units I could as the Colonials pressed in and tightened the noose. I did exit the last British unit and the game ended as a draw on turn 24.

I'm as competitive as the next guy, but I do not see any merit in handing over a free win just on principal of dieing to the last man. Had I really been in command of an army in that situation, I'd have left the field even earlier hoping to "rise again" as you Colonials are fond of saying :)

So I guess the point is do we play as armies fought historically (note the many many orderly American withdrawals in the ARW) or do we stick to some sense of ethic which says that one should go down to the last man when facing total rout, elimination, and a certain loss on the record books?

My esteemed and quite skillful opponent BTW was Mark Collino who in no way complained about my withdrawal, but did razz me a little to which I took absolutely no offense at all :)

To state my position, I truly feel that all's fair in love and cyber-war. If someone wants to try to snag a VP hex on the last turn playing against me, he'll find capable and fresh troops defending it. If he wants to attempt to capture my leaders or supplies with rogue cavalry units that's fine. All the more points for me because I don't leave those units in harm's way or unattended out in the open. I don't employ such tactics myself, but don't mind at all if others practice unsound tactics ;). Relatedly, I don't make a practice of withrawing, in fact this is the first time I've purposely done it as far as I know, in nearly 70 club matches. But in this particular situation it surely warranted it in my opinion.

I've seen discussions about this in other clubs degenerate into bickering and flaming and that's not what I'm after. I would be greatful for anyone's opinion on the matter though.

Edited by - Phil Natta on 08/23/2001 21:05:56


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2001 3:36 pm 
We agree on most points Al, except that perhaps I hurt the Colonial Army just enough that it still could be considered a draw, just as a lot of accounts of Guilford Courthouse read. Yes the Americans surrendered the field, but they also tagged the Brits enough that they couldn't do anything but sit in place and gasp for air for a day or two :) I'd hate to see a club rule penalizing withdrawing players because of this very point.

And if I'm beating up on an opponent and he can manage to slide away without me doing anything about it....such is war in my book. It's happened all throughout history.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2001 3:52 pm 
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I think it's fine to withdraw from the field in a situation like this. You have put up a fight and it is clear you don't have any other options. Where it isn't OK is for a player to boggie off the field with a win, and not join battle at all. Now that would need to be penalized IMHO.

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Maj. Hamilton, New York Militia, Secretary of War - CCC
</HTML>


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2001 4:05 pm 
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Phil,

I would say your decision was ethical and wise, given the situation you described.

The fact that you were able to execute a fighting withdrawal and preserve the draw speaks to your skills as a commander. (Now if I could just get you in that situation, I could retire to my farm.)

The fact that you are falling back and escaping puts the pressure on your pursuer to grasp the victory firmly before it slips away.

Now ... three cheers and a round of drink for Mark for chasing "Bloody Natta" from the field!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2001 4:16 pm 
"Now ... three cheers and a round of drink for Mark for chasing "Bloody Natta" from the field!"

LOL :) And let me buy the first round! Mark deserves a whole "boot" of drink in fact...chug! chug! chug!! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Thanks for your thoughts gents.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2001 7:37 pm 
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I feel it is dependent of the circumstances of the game. The map edge is NOT the end of the earth. Units are coming from someplace and going to another. It makes sense to withdraw when staying is just going to be a mopping up of units. Making a good withdrawl is not the easiest thing to do.

<b><font color=red>Ernie Sands
LtC,3rd East Kent,CCC
Cpt,1 Konig,VIII,AdR
BG, 3/XXIII AoO
President, Colonial Camp Club
Sch,183Inf,VIII,PzC
Pvt B Co, 3/3-MBC </b></font id=red>


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2001 7:56 pm 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
History and contempory writers of the day always awarded victory to the holder of the field of battle.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
I agree that,although this was certainly true in Europe in the 18th Century, I do not agree that this "rule of engagement" carried across the pond to the Colonies.
The Colonials lost more battles then they won yet they were able to survive and win in the end.
They did not always hold the field at the end of the day...yet moral victories were gained.
Thomas Gage stated after the Battle of Bunker Hill..."Three more such 'Victories' and we will surly loose the war."
In nearly every battle there is a point of truth where the outcome is undisputed and any further conflict becomes fruitless.
Good commanders see this and react to it.
In my opinion:
If you can disengage under circumstances favorable to your army and you fail to do so then your ability to command is questioned.
In other words...I support Phil's actions.




Soldat Tom Comte de Boyce
3er,7e,de Foix,French,CCC
tommyb1129@aol.com


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2001 10:49 pm 
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Yes, in the 18th Century the holder of the field was regarded as the victor of the battle, and a focus of all military operations was to save the amry. In addition there is an interesting quote from a Austrian officer in the Seven Years War:

<i>To fight a battle means to push back the enemy - not to root out the human race.</i>

So, for gaming purposes the vicotry hexes are important: when you leave the field all VHs are controlled by your opponent. If then the outcome is still a draw, due to his casulities,

- you have done a good job in exterminating the humanen race
- hes has done a good job in pushing back the enemy

His newspapers would claim:

<font size=5>Glorious Victory at Bladensburg</font id=size5>

Meanwhile, military experts would judge on this different because your foe has failed to save the army.

So, I don't see anything unethic in withdrawing in time as long as the vicotry hexes are taken into account.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2001 11:08 pm 
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Phil,
I think oyur decision was a wise one. You have to think for your men too. Let the Colonials be happy about holding the battle-field, burn down a few Farms and come back later with more men<img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

Captain, 1. Regiment (Royal Scots)
Royal North American Corps

Edited by - Stefan Reuter on 08/24/2001 05:10:28


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2001 12:22 am 
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I disagree. If I have severely mauled my opponent's army, and now I am going to collect the VP's and he withdraws the troops, thus denying me the chance to eliminate them, I consider this not at all fair. As Ernie said, the world doesn't end at the map's edge. In real life, there would be no chance of just "exiting the map" and getting away. If my opponent feels he has lost and has to leave the field, than IMHO he has to admit defeat and hand over his sword. I am in command of the ground then and have earned a major victory.

If we accept withdrawels, where does it end? Some scenarios start with a major defeat for the first side. The opponent would have to do nothing but withdraw all his troops and he would win a major victory. Now I am certain we all agree that this is not the idea. But where to draw the line? How long does someone have to fight before he is entitled to leave the field in order to preserve the present victory status? Is a preserving a draw by exiting the map any more acceptable than preserving a major victory? I feel unable to draw any line, and thus for me it's clear that I have to fight or to surrender, but not just to run away when I like the present result.

<font color=red>Sgt. Walter
4th Regiment "King's Own"
Royal North American Corps of 1812</font id=red>

Edited by - D.S. Walter on 08/24/2001 08:33:36


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2001 6:54 am 
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If the scenario is setup so it looks like a complete withdrawl is possible, then make an agreement, at the start, NOT to withdraw units off the map.

<b><font color=red>Ernie Sands
LtC,3rd East Kent,CCC
Cpt,1 Konig,VIII,AdR
BG, 3/XXIII AoO
President, Colonial Camp Club
Sch,183Inf,VIII,PzC
Pvt B Co, 3/3-MBC </b></font id=red>


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2001 8:06 am 
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Well, one thing is sure, I will certainly never again start a game without having my opponent agree to a complete ban on withdrawels. Only that so far I thought that was not necessary, because it seemed plainly obvious to me that this was just not done. Seems I was damned wrong.

<font color=red>Sgt. Walter
4th Regiment "King's Own"
Royal North American Corps of 1812</font id=red>


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2001 9:56 am 
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As long as the topic of casualties/surrender etc. has been raised, I have always thought it might be interesting to limit the total percentage of casualties in either army to say 25% of the total. The first player to surpass would receive a defeat. It seems that could be programmed into the game as an optional rule.
(Hint, hint, John.) Tactics in the 18th century stressed manuever and conservation of forces. If a commander lost 25% of their men, they usually left the field. They had to have enough men to fight again, something none of us do when playing these games.

Larry Davis
Captain of
His Royal Majesty's
64th regiment of Foot
on the CCC


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2001 10:48 am 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
I have always thought it might be interesting to limit the total percentage of casualties in either army to say 25% of the total. The first player to surpass would receive a defeat. on the CCC
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>

Gentlemen,
why do you need new rules for each aspect of the game? Why not delare the human with the longest nose to the winner <img src=icon_smile_angry.gif border=0 align=middle>

If there is no chance for a victory and I need to withdraw my men from the battlefield to save there lifes I do it Dierk. Whatever you say.

If I need to send my men to hell to save the day for our King I will do it Larry.

Go out and fight. Let the Rebel's rout until they are willing to pay there taxes.<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Captain, 1. Regiment (Royal Scots)
Royal North American Corps


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2001 11:58 am 
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<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote><font size=2 face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
If there is no chance for a victory and I need to withdraw my men from the battlefield to save there lifes I do it Dierk. Whatever you say.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote></font id=quote><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" size=2 id=quote>
I do that, too, Stefan. Only when I do it, I admit that my opponent is in command of the field and thus has earned a major victory. How can you on the one hand surrender the field, and on the other hand claim a draw? Makes no sense.

<font color=red>Sgt. Walter
4th Regiment "King's Own"
Royal North American Corps of 1812</font id=red>


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