American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

Good gracious... thirteen years later...

I guess the question is whether or not things have gotten better, worse, or remain the same for our genre of video games?

My hopes of seeing these games sold in stores (even in the checkout impulse purchase area) were never realized. Now with the demise of physical games that possibility is no longer there. The dominance of Steam and other online gaming stores is now very entrenched. WDS has their reasons for not using these stores and that's their call to make. I do wish there was a way WDS could put their games on Steam though.

When I first posted on this topic I was in my 20's. Now I'm in my 40's and am no longer a "maverick" kid playing a game against the old fellas. Now I suppose I am just an old fella

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Gen. Blake Strickler
Confederate General-in-Chief
El Presidente 2010 - 2012

Our 'genre' of video games are, at this stage, a very niche genre, I suggest. I further suggest that the age profile of those committed to playing these games, as opposed to dipping in and out, is most definitely in the realms of the 'old fella' or older fella at the very least. Todays video games bear little relationship to what HPS, Talonsoft and now WDS produce. They are not simply 'games' I suggest, they are simulations, deep, engrossing and requiring an input of substantial time, persistence, patience and above all dedication to a chosen period, irrespective of that period. The video games of today reflect the pace of life as it pertains today.....fast. Only us 'old fellas' can truly understand and appreciate when things did not move at such a blindingly fast pace, when a 286SX was a standard or even a 486DX as the optimum . Two cents, from an old fella.

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Karl McEntegart
Major General
Officer Commanding
Army of Tennessee





Make my enemy brave and strong, so that if defeated, I will not be ashamed.

I am curious though regarding your take on Steam. WDS have chosen, for their own reasons, not to put their games on Steam, as stated previously. They could put them on Steam I don't doubt should they so wish, allowing of the financial implications to the company, but my question is.......Why would you want them on Steam ? What are the benefits to us, the customer ? At the present time, under the current system, having purchased a game from WDS, we download it to our hardrive/flashdrive/external drive or whatever, and it is there, ours.....forever ! I have Steam games, as do many of us I don't doubt, but there is always a 'little nag' in the back of my head.....what happens if Steam goes 'West', my games and money go west with them
Your thoughts and views in this regard appreciated, Sir

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Karl McEntegart
Major General
Officer Commanding
Army of Tennessee





Make my enemy brave and strong, so that if defeated, I will not be ashamed.

You could be right about Steam. But tens of millions of gamers (including you and I) still use Steam despite the possibility it could go away someday. We also use Netflix, Apple Cloud, Microsoft One Drive, and many other things that we hope are always around and pay for as if they will be. In reality, any of them could shutter their windows tomorrow. I've never worried about buying a game or movie from any of these services though. No offense to WDS, but if you asked average people which company, WDS or Steam, they trusted more to give their money to and purchase from, they'd say Steam. Does this lack of having a storefront on Steam hurt WDS and their clubs? I don't know. WDS has their sound reasons for not using it and we have to trust they have done the math on the economics of it. But the genre will continue to shrink unless these types of games can at least get their products out there for more people to try and experiment with. That's what got Talonsoft on my radar in the 90s - I saw it and gave it a chance because it was readily available as an impulse purchase. Anyone can buy a WDS game 24/7 on their site - I get that. But I, and others, have undoubtedly gone to Steam and searched "Civil War" and chosen from those games first and foremost. It'd be nice if the WDS games were there as an option is all.

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Gen. Blake Strickler
Confederate General-in-Chief
El Presidente 2010 - 2012

An interesting discussion that covers several issues. I'll discuss them separately.

Price/Availability of Games

I feel the WDS games are a fair price, probably cheaper now than they were (once inflation has been factored in). I think if a game's replayability is high then the value is good.
JTS/WDS games have a high replayability value against real opponents and thus are good value. I find them useless as one-player games so I can understand why others may feel the same. WDS should forget about 'improved' graphics. They will never compete against other games in that field. WDS should improve the AI (although that has no immediate benefit to the ACWGC as we have real opponents). Gary Grigsby did it in a hex game (and War in the East is a massive game compared with WDS games) so it's possible. I bought the original WitE (with the hardcover book) and found it good value as I still play it once a year.

Civil War boardgames are still being produced but they are not cheap. Their replayabilty is certainly much lower than WDS games when played against real opponents.

Future of Wargaming

Definitely on the downward trend. Gone are the days when you could go to a local toy shop and buy wargaming miniatures, boardgames and later on video games. It's virtually all online now and the mega toy stores rarely stock any wargaming items. I remember when I was about twelve and went to the local toyshop, selected a boardgame and put down a lay buy deposit on it. I couldn't stop thinking about it so later that day I went to the bank, withdrew most of my money and surprised the toyshop owner by paying out the lay buy. The next day I was playing it with a friend.

Like Joe Meyer alluded to on page 1, I only really consider those games that are historical as genuine wargames. Battling elves or starships might be fun games but they are not wargames to me. Still, there are real wargamers out there. I know this from other wargaming forums that I belong to. They are active forums with mostly active wargamers. Consequently, I feel that our Club should not be declining in Member numbers and games played as much as it has been. Various 'challenges' over the last few years certainly seemed to arrest that problem but I fear their effectiveness has waned.

Recruitment/Retention

More, much more, needs to be done on recruitment and retention. Although numbers have declined overall, wargamers are out there, they need to be attracted to our Club if it is to remain viable for more years into the future. It was interesting to see that thirteen years ago Club Member were bemoaning "dwindling membership" at a time when the Club had much stronger Membership. A number of those who contributed to this thread are still in the Club. What must they think of the ACWGC numbers now?

The Opening Post

The opening post asked several questions and here are my answers.

What do you'll think?
You have it, in part, above. I could say a lot more but I would really like to hear other opinions.

Are the [JTS/WDS] games getting too pricy?
No, I feel they are relatively cheap. That is especially so when you are able to play them against real opponents, which this Club provides access to.

Too boring?
Not to me. Several scenarios I have played a few times as they have played out differently on each occasion. That's replayability. There are scores of scenarios I have never played. New scenarios are a new challenge and that's never boring. And you can add to that new scenarios designed for these games by others. I am currently playing Blake's Gettysburg (BG001), only 14 turns done and certainly not boring thus far.

Too high a learning curve?
No.
The Club provides some basic training when you join and I've always found other Members [especially those on your own side] keen to provide advice and answer questions about the games. There is also a lot of assistance available in the Training Academy, in the War Colleges, and even videos elsewhere. Read, ask, listen and watch - the learning should not be too difficult with all the assistance available today.

Too whatever?
Many in generations younger than me have been attracted to other faster paced, flashier action games. They regard many of these games as wargames; they are not. Still, once they are hooked on these other games it'll be very difficult to attract them to wargames. I know neither of my boys are interested in wargames, they are only interested in their 'wargames'. I doubt either of them will ever become real wargamers. I have tried to interest them; I have failed. [I feel the schools are partially to blame too. No longer do history classes contain thrilling tales of battles and their commanders.]

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Paul Swanson
Lieutenant-General
First Division
First Corps
Army of Northern Virginia

Your points are well made and indeed well taken too. I do not agree however regarding your point about the average person and their trust to whom to give their money to & purchase from. I, personally, am far happier dealing with WDS in whom I have to say I have total confidence. They are, like Steam, a commercial company and need to turn a profit but it cannot be argued, I contend, that the customer service and support offered by WDS has to be second to none. There is a personal touch to dealing with WDS and doubtless which has been engendered in the business model, and which for my money, works in their favour. Indeed Steam also provide a robust customer service but it strikes me as a faceless entity as opposed to the very personal and 'hands on' approach from WDS. Rich Hamilton & his team are outstanding at what they do.

I have to agree, in hindsight, that placing the WDS games on Steam may very well increase their visibility & accessibility to a wider audience, many of whom perhaps have never seen or played a game such as theirs. Rich Hamilton has spoken previously about the WDS games appearing on Steam and perhaps it would be interesting to hear an update from him/them in this regard.

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Karl McEntegart
Major General
Officer Commanding
Army of Tennessee





Make my enemy brave and strong, so that if defeated, I will not be ashamed.

As I read the summary of the article in the first post I hung on every word and agreed with everything he said, and it's not a bad thing but it's the truth IMHO and spot on even 13 years later. And I believe WDS will be around 13 years from now, but the game engine will have advanced maybe 3 years compared to the rate of development of the digital, graphics driven games over that 13 year period.

I've been playing wargames for over 50 years with my brother Mark who has made a fair living making board wargames since the early 80's; first with Avalon Hill in Baltimore and now as part owner of GMT (some of you might be familiar with his "US Civil war" game from 2015, a remake of Victory games classic "The Civil War"). I finally got him to play a few WDS Civil War and Napoleon titles and he liked them a lot - primarily because they were quite close to what Vassal provides for the board wargamers. The two markets (computer and board) are to some extent diametrically opposed. I'm the "brother who plays those computer games" to his group. On the average I think the computer wargamers are far more in tune with the typical board gamer than vice versa.

GMT is doing pretty well with a board game customer base spanning countries in Asia, Australia, and Europe. To me WDS can offer the best of both worlds and I believe that WDS has a lineup that could rival that if they can find a way to effectively reach out to the international market. How many people from Japan are active members of the ACWGC? Whatever the reason WDS has chosen not to go with Steam, I bet within the next 13 years we will see them on Steam, maybe with a well-structured discord channel to compliment it.

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Brigadier General Richard Simonitch
SIXTH BRIGADE (Artillery)
1st. Div. / V Corps
Army of the Potomac

IMO I think these games will be around for many more years. After reading the first threads from 2011 thirteen years ago and I find wargaming is still going strong. There are counting this club at least 4 others plus numerus forums. We are just one part of wargaming. Miniatures, Board and Computer all three seem to be thriving. As far as Steam Personally I tried it and I don't Care for it and don't use it. I like to have possession of the games I buy not depend on someone else's server. With WDS when I purchase their games it becomes yours and I have just about all of WDS games, God forbid they should they go out of business you can still play the games and the same with Matrix games too even though with them you have a choice. This one Oldman's opinion and at this time in my life I will not change.

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Gen Lynn Newell
Army Of the Potomac
V Corp
Commander

The future of gaming with WDS products is bright, IMHO. It will always be fun to try to do better than the "real" participants.

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General Ernie Sands
President ACWGC -Sept 2015- Dec 2020
7th Brigade, 1st Division, XVI Corps, AoT
ACWGC Records Site Admin

"If you do not know where you are going, any road will take you there."

Bright indeed, I can't see that the star of wargames is sinking. Especially WDS is doing a lot to make their games shine even brighter than ever, and I think in regards to them we have a really good time with all the improvements that all of the various series get and also the new tiles that are released. Even the series that have the conflicts covered they depict like our Civil War series or our sister clubs Napoleonic Battles series still undergo improvements, and looking at the age that these engine have it is just marvelous what still can be done to improve them in all aspect from graphic over game mechanics to playability.

Of course it is always a matter of society too, just think about the times of 10 or 20 years ago, society was different and with hat the life that each individual had to live. I know that I don't have the time anymore that I used to put into wargaming, nonetheless I still stick to it no matter what.

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Lieutenant General Christian Hecht
Commander I Corps, Army of the Potomac

"Where to stop? I don't know. At Hell, I expect."