American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

I am very disappointed in the AI for the hps system. I don't always have an human opponent to play against, so really would wish that the AI was better than it currently is. I don't understand why the AI won't use roads. I was playing a Gettysburg (full battle with fow) as the Rebs, and I couldn't figure out why it was now 12 noon and Heth's boys still hadn't encountered any of 1st Corps yet. So I cut the fog of war off, and to my surprise they were all still south and to the west of the Round Tops. They were moving through the woods!!11th Corps was doing the same thing! What kind of challenge is this? To me there is just no excuse for this. If a "game designer" is going to put out a product, the AI is something that should work to an extent. I'm not expecting it to perform as well as a Lee or a Grant, but at least on the level of a Burnside!

Captain Ken Turner
"Dixie" Battalion
"Guns of the Alamo" III Corps Artillery
Army of Alabama

You ought to see how bad it does at Vicksburg. I won Port Gibson even though out numbered three or four to one.[:D] Defending against the limbered artillery charge was always interesting too.

It would be nice to have a good AI but I will be very surprised to ever see it happen. It took some decades of considerable effort for AI to develop to handle chess and chess only has 64 squares and 32 pieces of six types. The HPS games have on the order of tens of thousands of hexes and hundreds of pieces. Plus the hexes have effects on pieces. Path finding logic by itself is quite difficult.

Most games solve the problem by limiting the player's actions and, sometimes, by having the computer handle both sides low level action so you can't out play the AI. Sid Meirs does this by having you have only limited command of the units. Most of the time you watch the AI slug it out with itself. Once you take his Gettysburg to the three day battle level rather than restricted scenarios it starts to fall apart too. I have only played around with Mad Minute's Bull Run a little but it seems to have similar problems. In small scenarios things seem to happen reasonable but as the situation is expanded to more units and formation the AI starts doing silly things. This is particularily irritating when it does it with your units. Which leaves you "maddly" jumping around trying to micro manage your units.

Maybe some day when the industry develops a plug in AI that is "smart" enough to learn the game at all levels. But then I stopped playing chess when the damn hand helds started beating the hell out of me.[xx(]

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
III Corps, AoM (CSA)

Is the thread title "STUPID A.I. !!", or "STUPID Al !!" ? [:D]

MajGen Al 'Ambushed' Amos
3rd "Amos' Ambushers" Bde, Cavalry Division, XX Corps, AoC
The Union Forever! Huzzah!

P'raps both Titles would be fitting???? [:o)]

Pat.

<font face="Georgia"><font size="4"><font color="pink"><font color="orange">Oh My!

I know I am going to regret this one, but I must agree with Patrick! Ken, come on by the office, I have a listing of the new 1st Lt's out of West Point, even right now I have a brand new one looking for a fight!

In my earlier days of computer gaming, nightly I would put a whuppin on the A/I (sorry not Al!) when I was gaming the old <font color="beige">Civil War Generals II!</font id="beige"> It got so bad that I was trying to see how few turns I could take to wipe out all of the Yanks! Now it seems I am the one getting a whuppin against real live opponents!

Respectfully,

</font id="orange"></font id="pink"></font id="size4"></font id="Georgia">

<font color="orange"><font size="4">Nick Kunz

General
Commandant
Confederate States of America</font id="orange"></font id="size4">

I have found that nothing ruins a player more than playing the AI, maybe Al too.[:D] They develop some really bad habits like ignoring flanks.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
III Corps, AoM (CSA)

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
May I suggest that you guys that want to do solo games use the Two Player Hotseat format. Its amazing what you forget about the other side's setup in some situations. Especially if you walk away from the game each time you do a move. We have used this format for playtesting and it seems to work out well.

Bill Peters
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">A perfectly fine 'boardgaming' kind of suggestion, Bill. But having a worthy AI opponent would sure be a welcomed, if long overdue-in-the-tooth addition to all as a solo means for exploring "what-if" scenarios, etc.. I'd love to see a "new millennium and improved" AI for these games, but it's far beyond my pc abilities.

Heck, for now, I'd be grateful for a wargamer-friendly OBB that would permit us to modify the unit morale / leadership ratings, etc.. [^] ==Denny

Secretary of the Cabinet, CSA (retired)
1st Tenn Provisional Army

<center><i>From a certain point onward there is no turning back. That is the point that must be reached.</i> --F. Kafka</center>

There are so few designers. The amount of effort to produce a viable A.I. would certainly limit development of new releases. I say-long live PBEM!![:p][:)]

Colonel Tony Best
Army of Georgia

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by kenturner</i>
I don't always have an human opponent to play against
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

How is that? This club is full of people eager to play. For years I have always ended up with more pbem games on my plate than I could handle.

Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
3/2/VIII AoS

Since joining a few years ago, I hven't played a game against the AI. People are too much more fun! I even LOSE now and again![:D] I can't leave my flanks open! I have to consider resting troops!




General Jeff Laub
Union Chief of the Army
ACWGC Cabinet Member
http://www.geocities.com/laubster22/UnionHQ/

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by laubster22</i>
<br />Since joining a few years ago, I hven't played a game against the AI.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Neither have I. I joined in Spring 2001 and I haven't done as much as a single turn against the AI since then. Why would I ever? Not a day goes by without 6-10 new PBEM turns in my inbox, and that's a good day and an improvement undreamed of even a year ago; it used to be 20-25 turns.

Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
3/2/VIII AoS

I have to actively manage the number of games I have going too...I can easily find myself with 20 or 25 going at a time and can't keep up...have never had a shortage since I came on-line back in '98. Of course I play 5 different series of games too, so that helps. [:D]

But, the comments about the AI are noted and I'm trying to help in that area for the customers that want to use it, but its slow going...so no promises.

LGen. Hamilton
II Corps
ANV, CSA

How many of you have tried Command Control when playing against the A/I?

BTW, my new title has at several "Challenge the A/I" scns. It will either defeat you in 10 turns or less or your money back!

Well, just kidding on the money back, but I did design 5 scns that should provide a better than average challenge. And they are called "Challenge the A/I."

FYI, It's much easier to design scns with a better A/I on the attack, unless you use emplaced units. The A/I doesn't recognize defensible terrain or breastworks, etc...



Capt. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

Also,

It might help to play the A/I uses manual def fire. Since the A/I moves each unit one at a time, they invite more opportunity fire. So using MDF may reduce that vulnerability factor.

Rich



Capt. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"