Napoleonic Wargame Club (NWC)

Gentlemen,

After finishing Borodino battle using New Settings Project I came to conclusion that artillery firepower is unrealistically high.

This is artillery firepower table I created for BG series for my next battle.
I would love to get some criticism on this. I am sure there are a number of people in the club who already tried do modify the table and there are plenty of experts on artillery of Napoleonic era.
All feedback is welcome.

<b>New Table:</b>
Range 1__2__3__4__5__6__7__8__9_10_11_12_13_14_15_16_17_18

Fire:A 6__5__4__3__3__3__2__2__2__1__1__1__1__1__1__1__1__1
Fire:B 5__4__3__3__3__2__2__2__1__1__1__1__1__1__1
Fire:C 4__3__2__2__2__2__2__2__2__2__1__1
Fire:D 8__5__3__2__2__2__1__1__1__1__1__1

Changes:
A: 30% reduction for case shots
At 700 range fires cannon balls instead of case shots

B: 30% reduction for case shots

D: 30% reduction for case shots

C: I am not an expert on howitzers, but I suppose they would be useless at close range of 100 200 and good at long range.

Ranges are the same as in New Settings, that is:
100-600 range for case shots (FP 3+)
500-900 cannon ball (FP 2)
700-1800 ricochet (FP 1)

I also slightly modified the fire result table.

First two lines in fire power table are the same as in New Settings fire table (no trash hits).

Then there are no changes until FP 50 line. The logic is that this firepower is achieved by cannon ball shots. The probability of hitting the target by cannon ball is dependent on many uncontrollable factors, like conditions of gunners, wind, luck and so on. So the result of a shot is hardly predictable, although the chances of hitting the target harder are increasing as FP increases.

At firepower 40 and further, generally most of the batteries including the biggest ones will start using case-shots. I assume that, case-shots require far less skill, luck and accuracy then cannon ball shots. Based one that, I believe that casualties caused by case shots should increase in proportion to fire power. That is, provision for inaccurate hits should be greatly reduced.
That is what I did at lines of firepower 50 and further.

Last two lines of FP 96 and FP 108 had the most significant changes. This is due to that this firepower would be achieved only by firing at infantry column at range one by Russian 12 gun batteries. I think it is unrealistic to have 25 men hits at this situation.

<b>New Fire Results table: </b>

<u>Die Roll 1__2__3__4__5__6__7__8__9_10_11_12</u>
FP
_2 ________________________________F__F__<font color="red">F</font id="red">
_3 _____________________________F__F__F__1
_4 _____________________________F__F__1__1
_8 __________________________F__F__1__1__1
12 _______________________F__F__1__1__1__2
18 ____________________F__F__1__1__1__2__2
24 _________________F__F__1__1__1__2__2__3
32 ______________F__F__1__1__1__2__2__3__3
40 ___________F__F__1__1__1__2__2__3__3__4
50 _____<font color="red">F</font id="red">__F__F__1__1__1__2__2__3__3__4__4
60 _____F__<font color="red">1</font id="red">__1__1__<font color="red">2</font id="red">__2__2__3__3__4__4__5
72 _____<font color="red">1</font id="red">__1__<font color="red">2</font id="red">__<font color="red">2</font id="red">__2__3__3__<font color="red">4</font id="red">__4__4__5__5
84 _____1__<font color="red">2</font id="red">__<font color="red">2</font id="red">__2__<font color="red">3</font id="red">__3__<font color="red">4</font id="red">__4__<font color="red">5</font id="red">__5__<font color="red">6</font id="red">__6
96 _____1__<font color="red">2</font id="red">__2__<font color="red">3</font id="red">__3__<font color="red">4</font id="red">__4__<font color="red">5</font id="red">__5__<font color="red">6</font id="red">__6__<font color="red">7</font id="red">
108_____<font color="red">2</font id="red">__<font color="red">2</font id="red">__<font color="black"><font color="red">3</font id="red"></font id="black">__3__<font color="red">4</font id="red">__4__<font color="red">5</font id="red">__5__<font color="red">6</font id="red">__6__<font color="red">7</font id="red">__7

Values in red colour has been increased by one (apart from the first line where the value was reduced to F from 1).

All feedback is welcome.

Captain Alexey Tartyshev
Moscow Grenadiers Regiment
2nd Grenadier Division
8th Infantry Corps
2nd Army of the West (NWC)

just one comment, as I am far from being neither a pdt table expert nor XIXth artillery expert:
sheer nbr of guns in a units is enough to get huge differences in firepower & thus in results:

in NIR, russian batteries have 12 guns while biggest french ones have 8: 50% advantage when it comes to calculate nbr of guns x firepower value

in BGW, AAs have 6 guns while french have 8, in addition to the fact that french have some A batteries, most of Bs & AAs have essentially C or Ds.

change neededin PDT? not sure[^]

Guillaume AYMONIER-AMELINE
Comte de Strasbourg
Duc de Ratisbonne

Maréchal de France

1er Rgt de Grenadiers à Cheval
VIEILLE GARDE

1ère Brig./ 3ème Div° Cavalerie Légère
IIIeme Corps d'Armée
AdN

Guillaume has a good point.

The New Settings PDT was determined by experts like Ruben Lopez, Paul Wakeman and Mark Eason and I would not like to mess with it. I don't really understand the subtleties of the table I confess.

Generalissimo
Opolchenie Korpus
Russian Army

Capt. Tartyshev,

I would be careful about increasing the effectiveness of artillery at ranges beyond 1km (10 hexes). To achieve casualties via "ricochets", round shot had to be fired on a flat trajectory, effectively limiting the maximum range for grazing fire to 1 km. Beyond 1 km, the requisite trajectory made ricochets insignificant/impossible, so the only casualties inflicted would be at the initial point of impact or via the use of exploding shell rounds. Both of those options were a chancy proposition, at best, against any type of moving target.

I would also counsel against increasing the effectiveness of point blank (1 hex range) fire for two, related reasons. First, when a cannister round discharges, its component "grape shot" travels along the axis of a cone. At point blank range, the cone is quite narrow, limiting the area affected by the round. Second, the human body will stop the smaller grape shot, so a cannister round will only injure the front rank of the advancing enemy formation. In other words, Jean's body, in the front rank, will be riddled by 15-20 grape shots, but Henri in the 2nd rank will be unscathed. Towards the end of the Nap Wars French artillerymen began to experiment with "ricochet" fire of cannister (The cannister would be fired at the ground in front of the advancing enemy) to get around these problems, but it was not widely used even within the French army, let alone the other armies.

Regards,

Paco

<i>Maréchal M. Francisco Palomo
Comte de Marseille
Duc d'Abrantes
Commandant - Division de Cavalerie de la Vieille Garde</i>
AdC - <i>Ieré Corps de Armee</i>

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by August Dean</i>
Last two lines of FP 96 and FP 108 had the most significant changes. This is due to that this firepower would be achieved only by firing at infantry column at range one by Russian 12 gun batteries. I think it is unrealistic to have 25 men hits at this situation.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Capt. Tartyshev,

It is actually quite realistic for there to be only 25 casualties from point-blank artillery fire.

To expand briefly on my earlier message, let us assume that a 500 man French bn is advancing upon a Russian btty. If it is deployed in the typical French "attack" formation, it would be deployed in a column of "divisions"; e.g., on a two company front. Each of these companies (of roughly 83 men) would themselves be deployed into 3 ranks, so the front rank of each company would only contain 25-30 men. Hence, the front rank of the batallion's 2-company wide formation would only contain 50-60 men.

Assuming the btty fires cannister, the <font color="red"><b>maximum</b></font id="red"> number of casualties it should inflict would be 50-60 men because grapeshot would not penetrate past the first rank. Moreover, if it fires when the French have advanced within, say, 50 meters, the deadly "cone" of grapeshot would not have expanded enough to cover more than half of the bn's frontage, so only 25 men would be affected. In essence, half of the front rank would have been riddled with grapeshot, but the remainder of the column would not have been affected. If they can manage to press on over their comrades riddled bodies, the btty should now be toast[:p].

Regards,

Paco

<i>Maréchal M. Francisco Palomo
Comte de Marseille
Duc d'Abrantes
Commandant - Division de Cavalerie de la Vieille Garde</i>
AdC - <i>Ieré Corps de Armee</i>

<b>would be careful about increasing the effectiveness of artillery at ranges beyond 1km (10 hexes). </b>

- Point taken. I will reduce Howitzers fire power to 1 at 1km.


<b>I would also counsel against increasing the effectiveness of point blank </b>

- 1 hex equals to 100m. Therefore, attacking column can be 99m a way from the battery. At this range the cone will be quite wide to hit one company at the front and a few other companies (to some extend) at the flank.
Moreover, a few guns (out of 12 or even can be placed with in a slight angle to advancing columns. Accordingly, this would create much wider target as flank of the column will be exposed.

I am not sure but, I wonder if guns could fire a number of times (more then 2) in 15minutes. Obviously, if they could, this would make a difference and 25 men hits are unrealistic.

Finnaly, all 12 guns do not have to fire simultaneously. For example, 3 guns can shoot- hit the first line of attackers including grenadier Jean, then another 3 guns- hit the second line and Henri from the second line is also dead.

I agree that changing artillery PDT is a risky affair, but on the other hand is it realistic to have 70,000 casualties in 2 and half ours? I was playing New Settings with flank morale modifier off and rout limiting off. There were only a few ZOC kills in the game.

So I am curious, what if case-shots firepower would be reduced by 30%? Would this create a balanced 3 combat arms battle? From my experience, at the moment artillery is pretty much dominating in Borodino. I haven’t try to play BGW and PTW so maybe this is not an issue there.
what are the casualties you usually arrive at the end of Waterloo or twin battles?
If it is high, I wonder if there is something can be done about it?
30% case-shots FP reduction is just my try to balance the game.
What do you think?


Captain Alexey Tartyshev
Moscow Grenadiers Regiment
2nd Grenadier Division
8th Infantry Corps
2nd Army of the West (NWC)

Alexey Tartyshev,

I love Tiller's games and I have spent countless hours playing both the BG & HPS games and playtesting the latter. That said, IMO, <i>as a simulation/computer model</i> for Napoleonic battles the programs have an inherent design flaw. Specifically, in these games the troop's morale plays a negligible role in determining combat. Whereas historically an assault only rarely led to an actual melee (either the attacker or the defender would break and run, thus avoiding combat), in these games ALL assaults lead directly to a melee. Hence, whereas historically only the side which broke and ran would suffer significant casualties (chiefly prisoners taken), in these games both sides get chewed up every time a melee occurs. This problem is compounded by the fact that a) troops rally from a rout within 15-30 min of "game time"; b) even highly fatigued/depleted units can be marched back into further combats. The net result is that in our games <b>armies</b> routinely suffer casualty rates in excess of 40-50%.

The heart of the "New Settings" modifications is not the revised pdt files, but the drastically revamped OOBs the NS creators designed. Since you can't re-program the games to take morale into consideration during the combats, a work-around was devised by reducing unit morale across the board and insisting that the players eschew the Rout Lim & Flank Mod optional rules which serve to boost unit morale. The intent was that units would no longer be able to slug it out for turns on end without first breaking and routing away. Forced to play with much more fragile armies, players can't, with the NS modifications, continue to simply slug it out.

Regards,

Paco

<i>Maréchal</i> M. Francisco Palomo
<i>Prince d'Essling, Grande Duc d'Abrantes et
Comte de Marseille
Commandant - Division de Cavalerie de la Vieille Garde </i>