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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:32 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Stefan Reuter</i>
<br />Please no section! I hate them at Gettysburg and don't like to see them here. If you like sections why not split off battalions into companies.... Where shall this end? In squad battles? I agree with Gary that there should be left a last bit of playability.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Stefan

You do already, they are called skirmishers [:D]

Just because others choose to use them does not make it wrong. You just choose not to play those scenarios. It is exactly the same as me choosing not to play the HPS series, because it does not meet my requirements.

Regards

Mark
VII Corps


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 6:53 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mark Eason</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Stefan Reuter</i>
<br />Please no section! I hate them at Gettysburg and don't like to see them here. If you like sections why not split off battalions into companies.... Where shall this end? In squad battles? I agree with Gary that there should be left a last bit of playability.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Stefan

You do already, they are called skirmishers [:D]

Just because others choose to use them does not make it wrong. You just choose not to play those scenarios. It is exactly the same as me choosing not to play the HPS series, because it does not meet my requirements.

Regards

Mark
VII Corps
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

OK.. I'll bite...

Mark.. What is it about the HPS series that does not meet your needs ?


Monsieur le Marechal John Corbin
Chief of Staff
La Grande Armee


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 7:54 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mark Eason</i>
<br />[quote]<i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
I forgot that you were speaking about NIR - the fire tables are in the PDT file. You can alter them if you like. They were removed in the HPS engine so folks couldnt cheat. Might upset the folks that like to adjust them for what they consider historical accuracy.

Thus ignore my question to Al - NIR PDT files have the table and can be adjusted.[quote]


Bill

While it is right that the pdt tables can be adjusted, that is also where the problems begin. To increase the hit probability for a gun section, so that it could hit targets at the same range as a gun battery, would also increase the hit probabilities for skirmishers - already the most powerful unit on the map!

So dabbling with the fire table is not always the best solution.

The NIR project files increased the fire table from the original 12-column to a 48-column matrix to introduce more options. This of course mean that having a high (or low) quality unit only increased (or decreased) its firing capability by 1/48 rather than 1/12. Not a good move for my money.

So I am still interested to know whether anyone can identify elements of the pdt file that can be altered to accomodate gun sections without significantly affecting other aspects of the game.

Regards

Mark
VII Corps
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

And I dont want to touch the fire tables either. Altering the gun info for Eckmuhl has produced an ongoing debate. The values I have now (in the soon to be released patch) are going to stick.

Oberst Wilhelm Peters
2nd Kuirassiers, Reserve Korps, Austrian Army
[url="http://www.acwgc.org/acwgc_members/burr/Austrian%20Army/Bill_Peters.htm"]Officer Battle Dossier[/url]


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 8:08 am 
Mark,

I don't play NIR. I was talking about altering HPS pdt files.

Download my AdvNaps stuff from Rich H's SDC site, and you will see how I've modified the Eckmuhl OOB and PDT files.

Colonel (ret) Al Amos
1er Dragoons
AdN


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 10:04 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Al Amos</i>
<br />Mark,

I don't play NIR. I was talking about altering HPS pdt files.

Download my AdvNaps stuff from Rich H's SDC site, and you will see how I've modified the Eckmuhl OOB and PDT files.

Colonel (ret) Al Amos
1er Dragoons
AdN
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Al

Thanks, I'll take a look at those. I'm not familiar with the HPS equivalent of the pdt file but I guess it must be comparable. I may trouble you with questions if I have trouble interpreting if that is ok

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Mark
VII Corps


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:14 am 
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In the scenarios/OBs that I have created, I have broken the howitzers out of the batteries as individual guns (or pairs depending on nationality, and battery makeup), and have had no problems with this division. I have not broken the batteries into sections except for a couple specific cases, generally where there were historically divided and not co-located, although I see no reason it could not be done.
In regards to the "problems" have been bringing up -
Adjustments to the PDT are not needed, since as has been pointed out, it is based on firing strength, and this is already incorporated into the PDT. Breaking it into sections is not a lot different than a battery taking casualties and being reduced in strength. It doesn't matter if the battery started as 6 guns and is now down to 2, or started out with 2 in the first place, 2 guns is 2 guns. Yes, I do understand that 2 x 3 gun batteries do not have the same effect as 1 x 6 gun battery, but the other side of that is you now get 2 "die rolls" instead of 1, thus doubling your chances of getting a hit.
Most guns, once you get beyond a range of around 6 or so have a 1 in the column anyway, the only difference is the number of 1's there are (i.e. the range), and the strength of the battery. Again, 2 guns is 2 guns.
Ammo supply is a matter of just taking the extra guns into account and increasing the ammo in the scenario setup.
As for split batteries making more units to move,.... come on now, what kind of aguement is that. What do you do in a larger scenario, or when you break out skirmishers, you have more units there too.
The ZOC consideration (aside for that general debate in itself) is moot. Again, it is no different than having 2 reduced strength batteries in the same hex pointing in 2 directions.

Ensign William Davis
23rd (Royal Welsh) Fusiliers
6th Brigade
Anglo-Allied Army


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:36 am 
William,

I modified the PDT file only because I thought the canned values were too weak. Otherwise I agree, a gun is a gun is a gun.

Colonel Al Amos
1er Dragoons
AdN


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:20 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by WillieD13</i>
<br />In the scenarios/OBs that I have created, I have broken the howitzers out of the batteries as individual guns (or pairs depending on nationality, and battery makeup), and have had no problems with this division. I have not broken the batteries into sections except for a couple specific cases, generally where there were historically divided and not co-located, although I see no reason it could not be done.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hi William

I too, prefer to break down to sections, or half-companies - especially in smaller scenarios. Am I right in thinking that you are breaking out only the howitzer(s) as a section of one or two guns and leaving the remaining 4 or 6 guns as a battery? If so, there is a problem with this, especially in a limited ammunition game. [As an aside, I work on ammunition levels at about 12 rounds / battery / day of a battle, to keep the effect of artillery on the battle down to historical levels]. The problem stems from the common ammunition pool, in that both the 2 gun howitzer section and the residual 4 gun battery draw on the same stock. Given that, and the superior fire power of the 4 gun battery, the wise player never fires the howitzer section, using its share of the pool for the 4 gun battery as this will be more effective use of the shot.

This is also why, unless you are tyring to engineer a difference in performance between the opposing armies, it is important for all batteries on both sides to be broken down to comparable levels.


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">In regards to the "problems" have been bringing up -
Adjustments to the PDT are not needed, since as has been pointed out, it is based on firing strength, and this is already incorporated into the PDT. Breaking it into sections is not a lot different than a battery taking casualties and being reduced in strength. It doesn't matter if the battery started as 6 guns and is now down to 2, or started out with 2 in the first place, 2 guns is 2 guns. Yes, I do understand that 2 x 3 gun batteries do not have the same effect as 1 x 6 gun battery, but the other side of that is you now get 2 "die rolls" instead of 1, thus doubling your chances of getting a hit.
Most guns, once you get beyond a range of around 6 or so have a 1 in the column anyway, the only difference is the number of 1's there are (i.e. the range), and the strength of the battery. Again, 2 guns is 2 guns.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Quite right. As long as both sides have their batteries broken down to comparable levels. If not, one side with a 6 gun battery can hit targets behind a hedge at long range (1 in the fire table), whereas the other, with 2-gun sections, can not, hit this target no matter how many sections fire.


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Ammo supply is a matter of just taking the extra guns into account and increasing the ammo in the scenario setup.
As for split batteries making more units to move,.... come on now, what kind of aguement is that. What do you do in a larger scenario, or when you break out skirmishers, you have more units there too.
The ZOC consideration (aside for that general debate in itself) is moot. Again, it is no different than having 2 reduced strength batteries in the same hex pointing in 2 directions.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Agree on all counts

Interested in trying out one of your scenarios on a fellow advocate of gun sections ?

Regards

Mark
VII Corps


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